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Writer Defends Adulterers, Calls the Rest of Us “Holier Than Thou”

Mon, Aug 31, 2009

News, Pop Culture, Websites

secret_affairphoto via venetia_joubert_sarah_oosterveld

If you’ve listened to Howard Stern even once over the past decade (that’d be Em, not Lo), then you know that one of his most loyal advertisers is the Ashley Madison Agency — the online dating site that caters to married people with the tagline “Life is short. Have an affair.” Charming. On and off over the years, we’ve thought about reporting on Ashley Madison, but every time we did, steam would come out of our ears and we’d realize that our entire article would consist of seven words, most likely typed in all caps: “Stop cheating you slimeball pieces of shit.” Just because the site sounds like it was named by Nora Roberts, as Jezebel so brilliantly notes, doesn’t mean it’s any less sleazy, immoral, unethical, or just plain wrong. Fortunately not everyone is as “narrow-minded” as we are; Melanie Berliet, a writer for Vanity Fair recently investigated the site to find out why men cheat, which involved interviewing men who said things like “I’m a big believer in monogamy through adultery.”

Read the rest of this post on SUNfiltered

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130 Responses to “Writer Defends Adulterers, Calls the Rest of Us “Holier Than Thou””

  1. lisa Says:

    No, the guys I sleep with don’t tell me they are single…..besides, how stupid do you think I am? You can tell…..

    The men I sleep with find me. I don’t go around grabbing innocently married men, enticing them into my home with promises of hot monkey sex. They have already made the decision to find something else. I’m it. At least some of the time. I don’t hide it, don’t pretend that someday he will leave her and marry me—if he left her, I’d leave him. I don’t want a full-time anything.

    So. I’m not taking the first thing available. I respect my lovers privacy, requiring in turn that they respect mine. I’m not stealing your men—whyinhell is it, exactly, that if a guy is straying, the woman involved is “stealing” him? He isn’t a car. He isn’t a possession—but I am willing to bet he is in my bed at least partly because someone thinks he is. A truly committed man doesn’t cheat…..but for the rest of them………

  2. Rei Says:

    ^So Lisa, you cannot find single men? You just like to accept a cheating husband? I guess you have no self value, or you have bad self esteem. Sorry about that. Must feel empty inside.

  3. lisa Says:

    Can find single men, have found single men—they always fall in love with me. Bleah. Then they want all my time. Bleah.

    Please remember—he ain’t cheating on ME. Flowers, wine, spiffy restaurants…..ladies, if you’d a treated the man right, he would still be with you. He isn’t. If you don’t want him to cheat, spruce up your act…..lose a little weight, get some spiffy lingerie, quit bitching about fixing up the house……..I’ve seen more women want a daddy-figure and then wonder why the sex goes. Yep.

  4. james Says:

    It is written all over your forehead Lisa.

    Lisa writes:

    ” I don’t want a full-time anything.”

    Lisa writes:

    ” Can find single men, have found single men—they always fall in love with me. Bleah. Then they want all my time. Bleah.”

    It is evident that you have a problem with intimacy, a problem with commitments, a problem with self esteem.

    Going after married men assures the man can not pursue a commited relationship with you. That helps you cover up for your commitment phobia.

    You do not want a full time anything, because you have a phobia with commitments. That is ok, you nhave a right to do and manage as you please. It is better to remain single and to full around wioth as many men as you want than getting married and cheating. You are fine .

    The problem comes when you select married men to fulfill your psicological shortcomings. You indeed go after married men, because you screen out the single men, for reasons that you already mentioned, commitment that the single men will seek.

    So married men take care of all your needs, the commitment phobia and the issue of facing your phobia disorder.

    You have the right not to enter a commited relationship, that is fair, and that is the best avenue for people like you, not to enter into relationships knowing you can not keep up with the commitment. I applaud you for that.

    But the good act you do on one hand ( which cheating spouses do not implement, they enter a relationship, w/o a commitment to defend that relationship.)…you destroy with the other hand. It is even worse, because you screen single men which you fear for the commitment proposition they will bring into your life, with married man, men that have children, have a wife, men that are doing something wrong, men you are using as a gold digger for , as you said:

    Lisa writes:

    ” Flowers, wine, spiffy restaurants…..”

    in exchange for sex, like a prostitute, because you have no other intention but to benefit financially from that shady relationship. You want no commitment, like you already said:

    Lisa writes:

    ” I don’t hide it, don’t pretend that someday he will leave her and marry me—if he left her, I’d leave him. I don’t want a full-time anything.”

    The more you write these childish justifications for your acts, the more you put in evidence your phobias, your shortcomings and your clear intent to benefit financially, which, in my dictionary, sex for money equals prostitution.

    Kind of interesting to read your justifications, you really need professional help.

  5. lisa Says:

    James—you are funny, you really are. Thank you for the insightful, if somewhat poorly spelled and referenced, analysis there. However, you seem to have a major error—in your worldview, which I would suspect is heteronormative christian of one ilk or another—commitment, marriage, and the subsequent production of children is the desired end result. It isn’t in mine. I far prefer to fill a need, one that lets the families stay intact–divorce is hell on children, did you not know?—and mostly allows the wives to retain their own happy bookclubs, playgroups and standards of living.

  6. james Says:

    Lisa.

    You are not that funny, but it is interesting to read your replies.
    I am not a religious person, I was born catholic, but I never go to mass nor participate in what I call “Hypocrecy”

    I do not believe in families remaining intact upon conflict. I do not believe people shoule even get married, unless there is a commitment, and a collective sense of responsability about what that marriage entails and what it means.

    I do believe that people that know they can not hold a life or marriage should never get married. I already said so, and I even praised you on that.

    What I advocate is for straighforwardness, for honesty and for courage. When a married couple has issues, instead of running out the door making silly excuses, in order to go find a lover, that couple, or the party to said couple that believes it is suffering unnecesarily, should establish communication, and try to elicit information from the other party, and arrive to a solution.

    If said solution is unatainable, then, there is what is known as “irrecontiliable differences” that renders said marriage terminated. Once terminated, the parties are free to engage in sex with as many partners as they wish.

    Your theory about my world view has been shown to be wrong in my previous posts, but I am reminding you it is wrong, perhaps you did not read my posts as dilligently as you should.

    I reiterate, your decision not to get married based on your own preferences is meritorious, but what is not meritorious is your decision to go after married men. Going after married men puts in evidence your own issues.

    This leads me to take back my previous congratulatory words about your decision not to get married. I can see it is not a meritorious decision based on an altruistic asessment of your values, it seems it is a selfish and wanton decision to remain single, so you can cover up for your phobia of commitment, and your desire to benefit from relating to married men, men whom are precluded from demanding a relationship and commitment from you, men whom you can exploit for financial gain, without ever having to face your own commitment phobia, and your lack of values.

  7. Elizabeth Says:

    Um… Johnny, no that is most definitely NOT what I tell my guy… First of all, the temptation to cheat – for me anyway – has happened exactly ONCE in my [current] relationship and it was not a specific guy that tempted me, just a situation.

    And if a specific guy tempted me, I would not say “Oh honey, I really want to screw this guy”. I would tell him I have a bit of a crush and we’d talk about it. And he does the same thing. It works for us… Considering we’ve been together for years. You and your girl have something different that works for you. And it’s cool that you have your own thing. I merely explained what works for me, and why for ME and my guy, discretion is not okay. I was defending myself against your statement that all of us women who demand honesty are manipulative. I’m not manipulating anyone, as this was something we discussed before actually getting exclusively involved. Our honesty is not manipulating. It’s what we do to deal with the reality that we both are sometimes tempted, but neither of us could handle an open relationship (yes, my guy has told me he would never want that either).

    Please don’t sit there passing judgements on me just because I view cheating and “discretion” differently than you do.

  8. Elizabeth Says:

    Lisa… Divorce is not always, or even most often, hell for children. I am a child of divorce – and I’m perfectly fine. I know many more children who were hurt by their parents remaining in a strained and broken marriage than kids who were damaged because their parents seperated like adults. Divorce is hell on children when the divorce is particularly painful, drawn out, and vindicitive. You know, kind of like the divorces that happen when there is cheating and betrayal involved.

    I truly see nothing wrong with adults who choose not to marry, not to commit, not to have children. I do however, see something wrong with women and men who have no respect for other people. And I fully believe that if you can betray another woman like that, then you don’t have respect for others. It’s not about possessions or stealing – it’s about the fact that you know how deeply the wife would be hurt if she found out and you don’t give a damn. That’s my problem with those choices.

    Oh. And what the HECK are you doing sitting there blaming a wife for her husband’s choices? Sure, there are women who let themselves get to a situation where her man might be tempted, but it’s HIS fault if he chooses not to talk to her about his issues in their relationship, HIS fault if he cheats. I agree that every relationship that dissolves has two contributers to the problem, but his big contribution was the cheating. Way to stand up for other women… Not only do you knowingly contribute to the betrayal of other women, you BLAME them. Awesome.

  9. lisa Says:

    I blame the wife because she participates. I don’t want to have sex with a 200+ lb slob. Why should he? And yes, I know, fat is the in thing, with millions of excuses for someone who wants to stuff everything possible in his/her mouth and never move. Nonetheless, people—and for that matter, the women who can’t find their spouse’s dick under the potgut—it isn’t just men—have to take responsibility for how their choices affect others.

  10. lisa Says:

    And where is the poor man if he says–look, sweetie, I want to free up some time for you to exercise, you are gaining weight and it turns me off—and she runs screaming that it is her right to be fat and she can’t help it?

  11. kb Says:

    Lisa-he’s free to persue a relationship with a different person, that’s where he is. If it’s truly so bad that he needs you, why is divorce the wrong thing to do?

  12. lisa Says:

    kids, pensions, community property…..why should half a couple give up their standard of living, let alone take it out on the kids? It is a happy modern myth that divorce is good for kids….their standard of living drops, their access to both parents drops….as long as the parents cab act halfway civilized, better that they stay together.

  13. Elizabeth Says:

    Please tell me which woman is going to act “halfway civilized” with a husband who cheats on her and never even tells her what’s wrong. Because I’m pretty sure they are way more of a myth than those kids who make it through life with divorced parents just fine. Like, you know… me… or all but one of the friends I have who grew up in that situation. Yeah. Forgot we weren’t real people.

  14. Rei Says:

    Lisa, are you a gold digger? Or a prostitute? Because, these married men are taking you out to fancy restaurants, and buying you things, right? Well, that’s a great way to take money from the straying husbands kids and his wife. Like I said in other posts, it just takes one wife to find out, and beat you to a pulp, leaving you confined to a wheelchair, and a divorce.

    I really like Elizabeth’s and James’s posts. These are people who act like real civil adults. They are the role models here.

    Lisa, you give women a bad name doing what you do.

  15. Lacey Harding Says:

    Nobody gets hurt if the spouses never find out. Think about it. It’s common freaking sense. And yeah, everybody does it or has thought about it.

  16. Lacey Harding Says:

    Just read Lisa’s posts. You go Girl! We are NOT the problem. The wives are. They let themselves go after they have kids. No man wants to mount an oompa loompa. My F*ck Buddy can’t even get it up for his wife anymore. She is that disgusting. I fulfill a basic need for him. He won’t leave her for me. They have two kids and he will never leave his kids. But she longer cares about her appearance, her attitude has changed, and the man needs some companionship. Plain and simple.

  17. Rei Says:

    No Lacey, its the husbands fault. He got his wife pregnant. He wanted kids, and he doesn’t want to leave his kids. He understood what would happen if his wife has kids. Not all women stay fat after kids, even though this is American, home of the Biggy size. Many women who balloon into a 200+ pound whale and stay that way because of kids, I agree, would turn off the intimacy with the husband. But instead of the husband helping his wife get back to her pre baby weight, and being sensitive to the fact its hard without lots of exercise and diet, AND support from the husband; He is foolishly going out and finding people, like you and Lisa.

    I have a question for you, Lacy, and for Lisa: Would you keep dating married men all your life? Never have kids yourselves? Never find a single man, have a NORMAL relationship with him, and marry him? Are you afraid of commitment? Are you ok with ‘sharing’ him with his wife and kids, and knowing he will never leave his wife for you?

  18. Slartibartfast Says:

    Lacey-

    What a wonderful philosophy you and Lisa seem to share. Stay classy. Incidentally, your observation that “everybody does it or has thought about it” is demonstrably wrong. Wishful thinking on your part, maybe, but definitely not supported by reality. I’ve noted before and I’ll reiterate it here that the whole topic comes down to a matter of respect. Both for one’s partner and for oneself. I’ve never cheated nor been tempted to on the few occasions where the opportunity has arisen. Not because of moral considerations but because I don’t want to be the sort of dishonest douche-nozzle that cheats and lies.

  19. james Says:

    There is a hidden lesson behind Lisa and Lacey’s philosophy:

    Cheat, and if you are a single woman, go out with married men ( men, learn from this philosophy, single men should date married women as well.)

    Never fall in love with them.
    Pray they never divorse, because that would mean having to “deal” with that person all the time.
    Just enjoy the spiffy restaraunts, gifts and flowers these unhappy people will present to you.
    Since nobody is gotten caught, we would be taking care of their families, because in reality we would be helping that family stay together. You girls are doing something that is actually good and needed in society.
    Do not worry about guilt feelings, using the family and specially the kids money on spiffy restaurants , gifts and flowers because it is all the fault of the spouse.
    The cheater part is a poor soul that needs confort, while you need some money, some presents and spiffy dinning provided at the expense of a family, a wife, and some kid’s toys and school items that they can do without.
    The best thing you should do girls, both of you, is buy good life insurance policies.
    The only good outcome from this despicable philosophy is that you will perish victim to a crime of passion. Perhaps your relatives ( since you are single ) will use that money to go to college and get an education, and in the process get some good ethics and morals .

  20. lisa Says:

    Oh no darlin’—I’ve done the married with kids thing. Left the fat slob of a husband after doing everything including professional counseling to see if he would quit swearing, quit being an absolute slob, or do anything worthwhile…..and, to be honest, the nice guy with whom I had an affair during that marriage saved my life and my sanity. I remarried, he cheated—fine with me, I didn’t want his sorry dick but was happy to stay married until I untangled the financial mess he left me in, and now—well, no kids at home, why not?

    Your ethics and morals don’t match mine. Fine. I don’t ask you to live your life my way…..and I have to say, I think you protest overmuch. Read through the comments in the rest of this website—telling a woman (or a man) that he looks like a fat slob is just not acceptable. We are supposed to love them no matter what, even if the dick don’t work, even if they are so fat you can’t find the tw*t in the thigh rolls……and the fat people happily blame it all on genetics. Bull.

    And no, I don’t feel guilty about spending the families money. He earns it, he gets to spend it. She wants a say, go get a job and then she can spend her own money…..

    As to crime of passion: ummmmm, yeah. They better be a damn sight better shot than me. More likely than not too slow to get out of their own way.

  21. Slartibartfast Says:

    Bitter?

  22. lisa Says:

    nope. i’m having fun, not sure about the rest of you…..

  23. james Says:

    Seems like you are having your little revenge against the system.

    Have you considered professional help? I think you would benefit from it, otherwise your war against an imaginary system will drive you into self destruction.

  24. Mary Says:

    Wow, Lisa…I’m almost speechless! I don’t think most of the people posting here realize how many married men out there hit on single women. I’ve spent years (blocks of years in my adulthood)dating (not committed to anyone) and its a real eye-opener to realize how many are seeking a little “something-something” on the side. It’s been my experience that its an ever-present part of the dating and singles world to encounter married men seeking more. And Lisa is right, most want to romance the new woman, which is a far cry better than what most single men will offer but I could never get over the little nagging fact that they are a liar and they were making me a dishonest (and SECONDARY)woman by their actions. It outraged me! TIME AND TIME AGAIN, married men would try to put me in what I considered an AWKWARD situation of little respect and it would get to the point I had violent thoughts towards them, myself. (and no, I did not have affairs with them…I just encountered the same situation over and over with various married men, I just want to start punching guys for their audacity! But that wouldn’t be very lady-like, would it??)
    I don’t understand how it doesn’t outrage you, too, Lisa. I suppose, you’ve bought into the whole deal-being rewarded time and again for your affairs, so it all seems just dandy to you. Don’t you feel any shame or sadness? You don’t have a real relationship with a man. It’s sad. I mean, both the wife and you have all the trinkets of the material world being offered and neither one of you is really getting the “gold” for your efforts. ONly the man is getting his cake and eating it too. Well, that is just my take on all this. Never being married gives me a different view on things, maybe?? And never taking on a married man for an affair(because of my disgust) makes it difficult to relate to Lisa.

  25. Lady Tarrant Says:

    Oh my, Lisa and Lacey, I hardly know where to start. I think your mentality is sad, but that is just my opinion. In truth, I simply cannot understand you. Lisa, you fleshed out your ethical stand point quite well, so I’ll primarily focus on you.
    You, Lisa, give the impression that you view yourself as a forward thinking, rational, strong, independent woman. And that is where my confusion lies. I understand that sometimes women find themselves in a bad situation with a married man. I understand that there are many naïve and conflicted women who really believe that the man will indeed leave his wife or that somehow this really is the best she (the other woman) can get in life. However, these women do tend to show at least some remorse, some indication that they have a conscious. You, Lisa, do not. You seem to believe that there is nothing wrong with what you are doing. You don’t even seem to care if the children suffer because the husband’s spending money on you and not them, because after all ‘he earned it, he can spend it how ever he chooses’—which is also confusing. How can defend your lover’s actions with ‘he doesn’t want to hurt his children’ and then say that it’s acceptable for his children to be harmed (in a financial sense) as long as it’s to your benefit? Seems a bit contradictory to me, but I digress. Back to the lack of conscious: if you really don’t believe that what you’re doing is wrong, then why are trying to find someone to blame? Why even mention the concept of fault if there is no wrong being done? And if you’re such the strong, forward thinking, independent woman that you seem to like to present, then why do you refuse to take responsibility for your own actions? Finally, if you don’t care about the potential harm that could be caused by your actions, the potential devastation of a family or another woman’s sense of self worth, then why even bother with the married men in the first place, when you can be safely wined and dined by single men and just leave a trail of broken hearts, instead of broken homes, in your wake?
    I can only think that perhaps it’s not so much a fear of commitment (many have that fear and don’t get involved in affairs), but perhaps you just like the thrill, the drama of having that taboo, secrete affair. Mayhap, you don’t care so much about the commitment issue, but instead care about the feelings of excitement that the possibility of getting caught brings into your life. Perhaps you really are just that bored.

  26. Mary Says:

    After thinking about this a bit more I don’t think you are right, Lady Tarrant-It’s not about boredom. Do you sense the passion in Lisa’s responses?? It almost sounds like she feels justified in doing what she has with married men, considering her past. I understand in that sense (although not with married men) what she is doing. And, like it or not, I don’t really care about “the children”; it always seems like the men who don’t get divorced and have affairs end up keeping their financial system intact better to support kids and have that extra to spend on themselves or another. It’s the integrity issue that bothers me, I guess. Beyond the “marraige/married man” factor, as I said, I can somewhat understand Lisa’s stance. As a means of getting what she wants (maybe even a strange sense of justice) she is quite proud of herself. That is my take. Do I feel Holier Than Thou?? No. Do I sound Holier Than Thou for my opinion and disgust?? I hope not because despite this morality issue, I’m the last person on Earth to be religious!

  27. Lady Tarrant Says:

    Oh, whatever.
    I’m a divorced woman as well. At the end of my marriage my ex and I didn’t have sex at all. Was it because I was a fat, unattractive, lazy slob? At a size 2, I should think not. No, I didn’t want intimacy with my then husband, because he was someone I couldn’t respect, no longer felt attracted to, and had inflicted a lot of emotional wounds through being fairly mean spirited because he couldn’t get his way all of the time. I was attracted to other men. I was even tempted on one occasion. It was an incredibly difficult time and I craved emotional and physical intimacy, too. BUT, though I didn’t stay faithful to my husband, I DID stay faithful to my marriage and never cheated. I also got a divorce, even though it threw me into poverty, took away my ability to go to school for years, and damaged many areas of my life.

    Thus, I don’t care for flimsy sob stories. I don’t feel moved, and I still don’t understand the convoluted logic behind Lisa and Lacey’s stand.

    I don’t mean to sound harsh. On a purely intellectual level, I am genuinely interested in being able to understand their (Lisa and Lacey) point of view, even if I’m not apt to agree with them.

  28. Mary Says:

    Lady Tarrant-did you think I was bringing you a sob story or defending them because I felt sorry for them? Not at all. I was just trying to understand their reasoning. Call me crazy for that, I guess. You don’t sound harsh. Also call me crazy for actually believing in the vows more than some of the actual parties involved/who took those vows (not you, of course). Disgust is not compassion, Lady! Being a total outsider to marraige and affairs, I just have to try and understand with my experiences and own judgement. If there weren’t so many men willing to stray, I’d be a much happier woman in the dating world and a much more content woman in a relationship, looking towards a future with a man!

  29. Lady Tarrant Says:

    Mary,
    My only point was that Lisa’s story of a lack of marital bliss does not give her an excuse nor even really explains why she plays the games she does with married men. It’s like someone telling me that since they were beaten in a relationship, it’s okay if they help someone else beat another undeserving partner.– Not that I haven’t run across that before, but only concerning persons who have endured severe psychological trauma and are in dire need of immediate treatment. Lisa, however, doesn’t seem to be one those unfortunate persons….but, I’m not her psychologist, so who knows.

  30. Elizabeth Says:

    See, I don’t understand why it is that Lisa can’t seem to stick to single men. See… She talks about how the single men “always fall in love with her”, but she obviously has little respect for other people, so why does she care if she hurts them by leaving them? Or maybe it’s just women she doesn’t respect?

    I don’t know. I just see it as utter selfishness on either of their parts. Both Lisa and Lacey keep bringing up these “fat slob women”… but I’ve been cheated on, I wear a size six and I always have. I have always been available sexually and open to new things. He fully admitted that I did nothing wrong and noting to deserve being cheated on. So tell me, what exactly did that woman have in justification? She knowingly hurt me (She was an acquaintence) and was out for her own selfish gain.

    That’s what it comes down to. Women and men who cheat, or become “The Other [Wo]Man” are serving entirely themselves and care for no one else. And some people believe that they don’t have to. Which is rather unfortunate for the state of the world as a whole, not just in cheating.

    Oh – and I would like to reiterate that no, not everyone does it or thinks about it. That’s just wishful thinking.

  31. Frank Says:

    I guess that this is a very touchy topic with many raw emotions, but people seem to be getting awfully personal in attacking one another over this one. Many of the comments are what is called “ad hominem” i.e. attacking the person not the matter being debated. Just because someone does not like Lisa’s or Elizabeth’s or Lacey’s or James’ attitude does not prove or disprove whether adultery is good or bad (or indifferent).

    We might start by calling attention to the fact that adultery has been going on throughout recorded human history, and the world has not ceased to turn yet because of it. As far as we know it has not saved the fate of our planet yet either, and many other things that might be considered rather naughty have been going on since the dawn of recorded time as well – such as stealing, fighting, etc, so the fact that adultery has existed since time immemorial is not in and of itself a valid defense of it – more just an exhibit of how tough it might be to eliminate adultery completely if one really wanted to do so, and it seems less dangerous and harmful to the general population (those not directly involved in said love triangle) than those other issues.

    Since adultery is likely terribly difficult to irradiate, I would like to propose to live and let live: If one does not support adultery, then that person need not commit adultery or help someone else to commit it (meaning in this case the “biblical sense” of help to commit…) or even marry someone who is pro-adultery. On the other hand, if a person does happen to like adultery, then maybe they should be able to commit it without fear of violence or even being drug into court over the matter, as our courts are already overburdened with the people who are still stealing, fighting, etc since time immemorial – And I think that this is generally becoming the case with no fault divorce laws and such (there seem not to be so many private detectives following straying spouses around snapping pictures for divorce cases anymore these days). On the other hand, there are many benighted countries in the world where especially women might be killed for an offense such as adultery (which makes the comments of those of you calling for violent revenge terribly disturbing at least to me).

    So in short: those who like cheating should feal safe to cheat, and those who don’t like cheating should not bo obliged cheat (and they probably shouldn’t even marry people who like to cheat either, as that is likely to lead to hurt feelings later too). But let’s not drag the United States into the dark ages over this issue (there other countries that one could move to if they really want to witness vigilante justice over sexual mores).

  32. Mary Says:

    I didn’t mean my comment to be a personal attack on Tarrant and my commentary about my personal feelings towards men who hit on me (or try to date) who are married are just an expression of the aggravation it has caused me. I did not hit anyone, although, I did become quite good at slapping and sometimes cruel to men who would try with me. I guess I should be relieved that there is a site for married men to go trolling for affairs in one sense, but in another (in a personal-relationship sense), obviously, it bothers me. Can anyone else understand how after (barrages over the years)50+ married men try for sex, romance, etc. it can aggravate a person to anger when they are seeking a monogomous relationship(and are open and honest about that?)? It’s a real pain to repeatedly spurn the (very wrong and misplaced) advances; such is the dating scene (and I guess despite my forward thinking in some ways, I’m old-fashioned in that sense), discerning the wheat from the chaff…Maybe I didn’t take enough dating breaks to blow off the aggravation steam because it must still show!
    P.S: Tarrant, I apologize things were so harsh on you for doing the right thing. In my own way, I can relate.

  33. Lady Tarrant Says:

    Mary,
    Thank you, but I don’t need apologies nor sympathy. Although doing the right thing was incredibly difficult at the time, it was in the end well worth the trauma and set backs.
    I also understand your aggravation. I spent three years alone because the only men who expressed and interest in me were married.

    As far as what Frank had to say, I can agree with pieces of it. Although, I do believe it’s naïve to think that someone who is being cheated on would have no propensity towards violence. Furthermore, one shouldn’t think that just because they feel fine about being the other woman/man that the spouse of the cheating party is fine with cheating. In fact, I should think that if both parties in a relationship are fine with each other having multiple partners then they would be in an open relationship. The act of sex with someone who isn’t your committed partner isn’t in and of itself cheating (again, open relationships have this), it’s the deception and lack of openness that is the transgression.
    I may be ‘old fashioned’ in my thinking—though I’ll not change for concern of a stereotype—but I firmly believe that if one is doing something that they feel they need to lie to their partner about, then it’s probably not the right thing to do. And once again people seem to neglect that this is also a HEALTH ISSUE that strips the victim of their rights to choose what types of risks they wish to allow themselves to be exposed to. Notably, I must admit that I put the brunt of the weight of the betrayal more on the cheating party than the other woman/man. One cannot trust the world, but they should be able to trust their partner, since their partner is the one who made the promises.
    If people feel so justified for their cheating, then why do they feel the need to hide it? And if one claims that they need to hide it because their partner doesn’t feel the same about it as they do, well, then maybe they need a new partner that is more compatible with their line of thinking. My point is this: I believe cheating is wrong because deception and betrayal of trust is wrong.
    Finally, a reality check: I’ve known one woman who was stabbed to death for being involved in such a nasty triangle and the man (the cheating spouse) now sits in jail for having not stepping in nor calling the police to stop the fight. I’ve also known another woman who was given herpes by her cheating husband. Neither story is romantic or even pleasant.

  34. Rei Says:

    ^Yes, or the Other Woman gets pregnant by the cheating husband, etc. It happens sooner or later, the fantasy ends, and someone, or multiple people in the situation get an STD, shot, stabbed, you name it. People can be really aggressive once they find a cheating spouse. We all know what people are capable of.

  35. Sabrina Says:

    Um… what the hell does being fat have to do with it? It’s only ‘fat’ people with kids that get cheated on. I find it a little strange that Lisa is so obsessed with this ‘weight’ issue…

    I’ve never been married or cheated on, but my father did cheat on my mother (gasp… so perhaps I’m biased?). He kept it from her and it was her finding out that lead to the vindictive divorce mentioned above. I was young at the time so OF COURSE it was hard, but would I rather have had my mom not know and been played for a fool? Of course, not. I love her too much for that and the fact that post-divorce she raised me on my own (and we did not go into poverty. we kept our house, and yes, a lot of this was because my father did still cared for me and my well-being too). I feel like I am a better person because I was raised by a strong independent woman who didn’t take shit from her husband. When I was 8 I might have cried and cried about the divorce but now at 21, I’ve learned from it. Also, only 2 of my friends growing up were from families that were NOT divorced. It is not as psychologically damaging as people make it out to be and in fact, people can learn from it. I know that I’m not going to just jump into a marriage.

    Anyway, it might be easier to relate to or see Lisa and Lacey’s point of view if it didn’t come off as arrogant. Ever heard of being sexy by being subtle (and classy) as opposed to thinking you’re hot shit? Also, it’s appalling that you think you’re doing the family/kids a FAVOR by sleeping with their fathers. Absolutely disgusting. When the truth comes out (and it always does), you’re the home-wrecker if anything.

  36. Orton Says:

    James,
    Reading you makes me want to puke you are a pious sanctimonious ass. Sort of in the vein of Jimmy Swaggart or one of the congressional boy bumpers who is caught with a nose full of crank and a mouthful of cock.

    Marriages have all kinds of flaws, mine is a wife who has lost all apparent interest in sex. the todlers have long since grown up. will I leave her for hot monkey sex as Lisa says probably not.

    I am in need of sex it makes me feel good human and connceted.
    divorcing over sex and throwing in the towel on my children to live apart is not my idea of fatherhood. Had my wife been honest and said hey I hate sex and after the kids are born you can pound sand.
    Well maybe we wouldn’t have gotten married. but we did.

    If I were to go without for years it makes me depressed angry and not a nice person to be around. Cheating okay what ever you want to call it but really a judgmental ass like James hasn’t lived a day in my shoes. I have been to counseling blah blah.

    No means no if she wants to jump the boyscout leader fine. but everything else seems to work. I have made peace with my situation.
    Get off your high horses not everyone lives like you do.

  37. james Says:

    Orton.

    Leaving your insults aside, ( I believe people should do that in person, a man that “writes” insults is just expresing what a coward he is, tell that to a man in person )… I do not see any ” sanctimonious ” issue in my replies.

    I do not care if the couple is together through religious marriage, common law or civl law, the issue is respect and honesty.

    You want to have other women?, you want to have many women? you want to have multiple partners ? ( and men if you are a woman, whichever the side of the story applies to you ) … then if you are in a relationship, then terminate it, break up with that person before you hurt her / him .

    If you have problems in that relationship, and you do not want to break up, to divorse, to separate, then talk with that person, instead of acting like a coward, and finding another woman / man, that will only help you avoid confronting your relationship problems, and provide you with an affair with another person, while hurting your current official partner.

    It is very easy for a coward ( male or female this is a 2 lane avenue ) to avoide reality and go find a mistress or a lover. Is that what a real man does?? or a real woman does? Are you suggesting you deserve a medal for being a cheater?
    Cheating means going out with one woman under false pretenses while engaged in a relationship with another. If that is what you preach, hope your partner shares your views, that is exactly what you deserve, a cheating partner.

    You know what makes me puke ? Coward people like you, that have cowardice written all over your face, a man that will not confront his partner in order to improve the relationship, a man that will neither terminate the relationship because he is “scared “. a man that will find another woman and 90% of the time even lie to that other woman telling her that he is not married.

    Stop trying to dress hinesty and assertiveness in a relationship ( which would be marital/couple communication and respect of each other ) with religious, sanctimonious excuses.

    You smell coward, your own words tell a tale of hidding, or a mediocre lifestyle.

  38. Frank Says:

    Just my humble guesses — Maybe I’m right / Maybe I’m worng, but here’s what I am picking up on:

    Maybe James values absolute honesty above almost all other considerations in life (and hopefully he has a partner who feels the same). More power to him, that’s great!

    Maybe Orton values some other things like time with his children and his version of a satisfying sex life above absolute honesty.

    Most people have told little white lies. Many people might think this is more than a little white lie, but who are we to judge without walking a mile in Orton’s shoes first? Maybe his wife doesn’t even care or want to know what he is doing or is in denial about it & wants it to stay that way? Maybe she wants Orton to stay for the kids, already has a feeling he has something else going, but doesn’t want to have it described outloud straight to her face? Maybe it’s ok as long as he keeps it discreet & doesn’t embarass her by getting caught in public & having the neighbors know and all that. Basically maybe she doesn’t want total brutal honesty either — there are people who are that way — it is true — I have known some (both sides of the couple). Maybe she has her own thing going too (or not or has what she wants, which may have nothing to do with sex). Without actually being there it is very hard to tell for sure, and Orton is there, and we are not.

    In any case, speaking everything outloud isn’t the only form of communication and not every marriage or even open marriage has a checklist, and not everyone would want to chek the same things on their respective checklists if they even existed (maybe money and peace trumps wild sex for her anyway) — people come to agreements in many different ways.

  39. james Says:

    So I get it, the way to show how much you crave time with your children is to cheat and misslead your family.

    Go tell your son that because you love him so much, and you want to spend time with him, you decided to have sex with another woman, and the fault is mom’s, because she can not submitt to the sexual desires of his father.

    Go tell your daughter that you decided to have sexs with a woman other than her mother, becausse you care so much to spend time wioth her ( daughter.)

    Go tell your family that you are a poor guy that all he wants to do is keep the family intact.

    Because you have no brains, you can not talk it over with your spouse, you see no reason nor solution out of that communication, and because you are a coward that could not live without his wife and house, you decide to cheat, so you can get away with it, and still keep the house and your wife.

    Yes, it is only a white lie.

    It is not an issue of white lies, it is an issue of “other lifes”. You are attacking and destroying the lifes of your sons and daughters, you are filling their memories and lifes with shame.

    You are hurting your spouse, and all of this just because you are so coward that you could not confront your wife on your problems. You are not man enough to try remedy the situation. You are not man enough to live to the consequences of your actions. You are not man enough to divorse and let your family exit your insecurities with honor. You got to smear everyone in your funky smelling soap opera.

    Hope when your kid grows up, he punches you and breaks your teeth , because one thing is for sure, you harvest tomorrow what you sow today.

  40. Ryan Says:

    “a man that “writes” insults is just expresing what a coward he is”…

    Oh fuck you, you condescending prick. I try not to respond to you, because you’re such a retarded windbag, but you’ve been insulting people all over this blog. And you love doing it.

    Hey, I wonder if your attitude to infidelity is the same – is it cowardly when other people do it, but ok when you do it?

  41. Rei Says:

    Who cares about insults, even though we do not know anybody here, its easy to throw insults, but its just writing, unless you are so sensitive and take it to heart. Most people hate cheaters, it has ruined their lives, their parents lives, and their children’s lives. No good comes from a cheating partner. I agree, that most people who have cheated, don’t even talk to their partner about being unhappy in their relationship. They just lie to their partner, and go out and find some cheap sex on the side. Its a lot easier to do this, than go through a divorce, a separation, or telling the truth that they cheated. How come people cannot be civil, talk to their partners about what is causing a rift in the relationship? Talking is easy. It’s those people, who are afraid, that cannot take confrontation, from their ‘loved’ ones. Just talk, just TALK to your BF/GF/Wife/Husband/Partner. You are with them for a reason, you love them; if you do not love them anymore, break up with them, I know its hard to do, but if you want to be guilt-free, and go out and date other people, and not lie to them too, just BREAK-UP!!!! Own up to your mistakes!!

  42. james Says:

    Yes Ryan.

    Guys that write and insult so much on screen are chickens.
    Like dogs behind a fence, bark and bark, furiously, let that dog out, and he is sheepish and shy.

    You want to tell the F word to someone, do it in person. I am not surprised, it is the cheaters, aka cowards, that resort to insults on line.

    I know your kind.

  43. Orton Says:

    Frank right on.
    Life is more subtle than than cheating or having a lover as I prefer to say.

    Honestly the sanctimony and the “ooh if you dont tell every secret or every event in your life to your spouse you are a lying cheating POS is a way to a demented life IMHO.

    I value my wife’ friendship and have mourned in my own way for our lack of sexual intimacy. She seems happy with out it. Okay I cant be happy as an individual giving up that part of my humanity. I also do not want to be a weekend father, with a drive by relationship with my kids. Im not out trolling around for women every weekend. and I am am discreet.
    I have a lover it works for us we are honest about our relationship we love each other too.

    In a perfect world, i guess black and white boundaries work.

    But when some one as self righteous and declaratively pious as James shows up for dinner at my house I find it is a good practice to check the silver when they leave.

    I am by no means a coward James. I pity you for your small mindedness.

  44. kb Says:

    Orton-if you weren’t a coward, and were convinced that your wife was happy, you’d tell her, she doesn’t want this, you’re going to get it elsewhere and let her know what kind of relationship you think you guys have. but you don’t. You’re lying to keep a relationship that she didn’t consent to. Seems pretty cowardly to me.

  45. Lady Tarrant Says:

    I’ve read so much of how cheating is for the sake of the children. I’ve read how lying is acceptable because it is for the good of the children. But I am curious as to how those who defending cheating care to explain themselves to their children when their (cheating partner) transgressions come to light. Do you really believe that you can keep your children’s respect when they find out what you’ve done to their other parent? Do you really believe they will side with you when their other parent is devastated and in tears? I should think a child would prefer a parent that they can spend less time with but still respect than one that is there all the time, but cannot be admired. I simply cannot understand how sex and deceit can be more important than your child’s opinion and faith in you if you claim to be deceitful because you love them oh so much.
    In addition, what kind of example are you setting for your children? Is that really what you believe is in their best interest, to be told it’s alright to be lied to? And would you want you daughter or son to be treated as disrespectfully as you are treating your partner? Do you want them to believe that it’s acceptable for them to be treated in such a manner because it was acceptable for you to do it to your partner? Tell me not that you are such a good father/mother when you show children that they should have so little respect for others and themselves. The harm you will cause them when the truth comes out, can’t possibly out weigh the Monday through Thursday dinners bathed in lies.

  46. Orton Says:

    Actually You have no idea what the hell you are talking about.
    I am done trying to explain a complex situation. Why would i crush my wife completely I win i am getting what I need else where she is worthless to me. that is what all of you sanctimonious windbags think is compassionate?

    I have been through all of the machinations of therapy, talking seducing etc.. this works for us.

    My wife is in denial she has denied my needs what ever she wants is the most important and if i am selfish and crush her spirit I am a coward that to me is the cowards way out.

    Should I force her to deeply examine something she prefers not to face for the sake of honesty? To me that is more selfish than my current arrangement.
    I have admitted I have certain base human needs that are not being met in m,y relationship that does not negate all of the positives of the marital relationship.

    In a perfect world I would not be in my situation. I have found I have the ability to be poly-amorous my wife does not want to be or want to face the facts.

    I find my situation allows me to be more grounded a better partner in many ways I am cranky, depressed, and not plesant when I am denied a physical realtionship.
    But i am not just that I am not just a sexual being it is one facet of life.

    I did not consent to a life of celibacy when I got married. I didn’t get the memo that marriage meant drying up and to be sexually faithful is the most important part of life. Love, honor and cherish not dry up and die.
    So kb until you have walked a mile in my moccasins respectfullys shove it where the sun don’t shine.

  47. kb Says:

    and why, Orton, can’t you tell her that. I have been in your shoes-my boyfriend can’t live in the same city with me, and that doesn’t meet all my needs. You know what I did about that? Handled it like a mature adult, and told him this. You know what, I get sex and don’t have to lie about it. I’m not denying that you have needs, but I do expect you to handle it like an adult instead of a little boy sneaking around behind his parents back. And yes, for the record, she needs to examine what she wants in the marriage too. I know, it’s scary to realize that you can’t force another human to do what you want and that she deserves the option to decide to walk. but face your fear.

  48. kb Says:

    also-Lady Tarant. you pretty much exactly describe what happened why my boyfriends father cheated-the children have both lost respect and desire for a relationship with him. everyone still convinced that cheating will keep your children in your life?

  49. balance Says:

    Hello everyone.

    Look, my husband almost cheated on me once. I wasn’t aware of anything, just some strain, lots of bickering.
    Instead of cheating though, he had the guts to tell me what was wrong, why he almost jumped in. Instead, he talked. We communicated. I was angry at first, and hurt, but because I love him, i looked into myself too, listened to what he had to say, and saw a few things that needed mending. I also tried to learn more about how men think, and what they want. And I told my husband that he was right on certain things, and dead wrong on others, and that he too, needed to work to learn how women think, or what they want.

    So communication is essential, even though it can hurt at first. Now that I know what went wrong between us, where the problem lies, it is easier to work on it. Now, we are a happy couple respectful of each other. But everything could have gone awfully wrong, and it would have hurt deeply, if he had made the other choice.

    But in a way, I can relate to Lisa, when she says that sometimes, the fault lies with the woman. Lisa is only wrong by thinking that men shouldn’t bear their part of responsibility too and saying “poor men”. They too have shortcomings and impatience and cowardice and misunderstanding, and they too can have a belly sometimes :-) I repeat, communication is essential. That means, no cheating and lying, or something is destroyed.

    It is unethical, and amoral to lie to a supposedly loved one and I would have divorced, had he gone on that way. But that’s my story.

    However, I don’t want to generalize. There are some cases where denial is too strong, as Orton says.

    It ended up all well for me and my husband because we are who we are. Not everyone has the strength, or the patience, or the honesty, or the compassion, etc to talk, understand, and then work hard. Everyone has his own level of what compassion means, of how far patience can go etc. Everyone has different boundaries or levels of pride, too.

    I know a case very similar to Orton’s. The husband has done everything, talked, communicated in many ways, gone to the psy, done couple therapy, and has tried to seduce his wife again. He has yelled, cried, talked sense, tried to convince. But nothing seems to work. She is in full denial. I think the problem is, she had her kid too late in her life, and now she feels like cuddling with her, raise her, and is totally focused on her. It is even bad for the kid, who thinks now she is the center of the world, and who sleeps with her parents, in between.

    The problem with American law is that the mother almost systematically gets the custody of the child. So what is to happen to this friend of ours, who communicated to no avail?
    A man is a man, not a capon. But that man is also a father who will not get the custody of the child, most probably. So yes, that man is afraid. And it does not make him a coward. He is just afraid to see his child only on week end, and let’s face it, this is unfair. Why should he pay the moral and financial blow of the whole situation when his wife obviously makes no efforts?
    He is cheating on her.

    I can’t say he is right, but I can’t blame him either. And I will not throw the stone as to whom is the most cowardly: the one who does not want to lose the child’s custody, or the one who is in denial? Because I do not know why the wife is in denial, I won’t judge her either. It might all come from her own childhood, and I won’t go there. Lying and cheating is generally not nice, and it hurts, but we should judge on case by case, not generalization.

    As for Lisa, the same goes. She wants to have fun, well it is her life. After all, all these guys who come to her and bestow gifts on her are much more to blame than her. And when there is a demand, there is a market, too…

    Do not compare this to prostitution: there is a whole shady business there, where prostitutes are beaten, raped or drugged. This is a crime, and those who pay for that sort of service should go to jail and pay heavily, because at the beginning there is violence, and at the end, there are those who profit financially from the services of these poor girls.
    As far as I know, this is not Lisa’s case, and Orton seems to have done a lot to talk to his wife, on his side, so let’s not bash them.

    Personally, I wouldn’t accept cheating from my husband, so I am glad he chose to talk instead. But I am also a woman who can take in the truth about myself and make an effort. Not everyone is me, not everyone is my husband.

  50. james Says:

    Balance.

    I hear you about the part that relates to custody and the fear a parent could have about losing custody of a child.
    That is a valid point. The issue here is to solve an untenable situation.
    Cheating in order to preclude loss of custody or family unity……. ( if you could call that unity, a cheating spouse, a cheated spouse, and children that know what is going on, because kids live in that house and kids know their parents better than their grandparents know their own children. Grandparents know the children they had when those were children, kids now those same persons, now their own parents, as they are and act in this present time, not what these parents to this kids were back in time, as children to those grandparents, eons, years ago.)…. is not valid nor healthy.

    You are prescribing liquor to calm the patients tooth ache. Liquor will only delay treatment, and allow time for the infection to reach incurable proportions. Eventually the tooth infection will spread through the whole jaw and the problem will become life threatening.

    It is sad to see a family separate and divorse, but the alternative not only affects the adult couple, but creates children that will suffer greatly.

    The daughters will learn from a mother that is the vcitim of cheating that a cheating man is something that happens, that is right, and something that men have a right to do and exert when ever they need it .

    Boys from such an enviroment will grow up to become womanizers, cheaters, men that think that a woman should conform to their own ideals. Men that albeit looking like slobs, like beer belly jugs, they demand their women to look like models.

    The reverse cases apply, a daughter to a cheater mother will become a compulsive cheater and man chaser. A son to a cheated father will become a low self esteem submisive man.

    In all of these cases, all the children learn, first and foremost, that all these sad misconceptions are inevitable. They learn that there is no point in trying to communicate and talk about differences. The lesson is, conform to that cheating spouse, or in the other case, cheat and put your spouse down, because she( he ) deserves it.

    Balance, you are telling us about your great experience with communication, and that is great, that is the way to go. It ended up in an adult and cogent reality evaluation, and you both made the necesary amendments to make sure your relationship would move along successfuly.
    I also believe men and women should be ready to confront the situation, and ready to act had the results of said communication, the results of that attempted meeting of the minds is unsuccessful.
    If there is no understanding, it is better to separate and divorse, that to apeace the fear a parent could have about custody of a child, at the expense of dishonoring, humilliating and misleading a spouse, and moreover, at the expense of the sanctity ( yes Orthon, this part of the equation I believe is untouchable )… of the children of said relationship.
    I would rather have well adjusted and happy children that go to school, and thing well of their parents, growing up healthy emotionally/psicologicaly speaking, children that will have an opportunity to grow with great self esteem, ( and the parent will always be able to see their kids, that is called visitation rights, by law , by statute ) than satisfying a selfish parent that in order to avoid his/her fear from custody issues, will, again, subject his spouse, and his kids, to humilliation and disgrace.
    Before a parent even starts to think about “his” or “her” custody fears, or the child support issues, he/she should think about the health , phisical and mental health of those kids.
    There is no in between, either you work it out with your spouse, or else take responsability for your actions.
    You want to fool around, then separate/divorse. You do not want to leave your family/house/posesions, then quit the nonsense.
    You can not have both sides of the cake. You might think you can, but your kids will prove you wrong sooner than you think.


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