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Your Call: Do We Need Male Reproductive Rights?

Wed, Oct 14, 2009

Advice, Your Call

seahorsephoto of seahorse — the only male animal that gets knocked up — by cliff1066

Dear Em & Lo,

The way I see it, there is simply no such concept as male reproductive rights. If your girl gets pregnant and wants to keep the baby, congratulations, you’re a dad! Pay up, sucker. If you want to keep it but she wants to abort it, tough luck — there goes your progeny. The only thing a dude can do is rubber up and screen for sexual partners with similar values.

We get it, the baby’s growing in the woman’s body, and ownership is 9/10ths of the law. But come on, now. There’s got to be some kind of reasonable compromise. I don’t have an easy answer to this, and I doubt anyone else will either. Men will continue to get a raw deal here. But could you open the topic to discussion?

– Cat Amongst the Pigeons

Consider it done! What do you think, do we need male reproductive rights? And if so, what would they be? Let the debate begin (no throwing things, please) in the comments section below.

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134 Responses to “Your Call: Do We Need Male Reproductive Rights?”

  1. Lady Tarrant Says:

    Yes, Cami, you are quite right. But men should be allowed to have a choice as to whether or not they want to be a father. Doug makes an excellent case for such that doesn’t infringe on the woman’s rights over her own body.

  2. richard ludwig Says:

    cami, why be such a feminist tool? it takes 2 to tango you know, and because of that men deserve to have reproductive rights in saying if the baby gets to live or not. they both helped in making it, so they both should decide in its future.

  3. Mike Says:

    Why stop now? I mean, women already have a strangle hold on men. You think that men have control? You are gravely mistaken. Just because you can bear a child doesnt mean you get to control everything reguarding birthing that child. But on the other hand…if you are stupid enough to get a woman pregnant when you didnt mean to, then you should be held accountable for it. There are too many ways to make sure there is no pregnancy to make any excuse valid. Now if both parties are consenting about getting pregnant, and then the woman wants to change her mind and get an abortion or whatever…then I think that should not be allowed. It all comes down to responsibility. Dont have sex if you cant deal with the aftermath..nuff said.

  4. Doug Says:

    Richard and Mike,
    A woman gets to choose whether or not she keeps the baby. That not only is the right thing but it’s also the law. men don’t ahve a say legally in whether or not the child is carried to term, but men should have an equal right to decide whether or not they want to support the child. Women can decide to be mothers, men should be able to decide to be fathers.

    Also, touting the age old “you were dumb enough to get pregnant, now you must be smart enough to raise it in a home without financial assistance even though you are clearly too young to have accrued any sort of wealth or well-being” is monumentally stupid. The last thing this country needs is more disadvantaged children born into poverty.

  5. Nathaniel Long Says:

    If real men want reproductive rights, they need to get them in a contract prior to conjugal activity. Traditional men who require that the woman promise to trust and obey in their marriage vows have reproductive rights, and they should, as they have made a fuller commitment. But men who just allow women to engage them sexually without a requirement of trust and obedience really don’t have a leg to stand on. If men want such control, they should have the moral character to be able to wait for a woman willing to promise obedience in all things, as stipulated by Ephesians 5:24. Men and women need to talk about exactly what they want before coitus. It reduces potential for future pain and suffering from misunderstandings. Most people in the U.S. of my generation had this instilled in them well by their parents. Far fewer young people today seem to receive such guidance.

  6. Bethany Pratt Says:

    As a woman and a mother of boys this is the way that I see it. We require men to be responsible and take care of a child through monetary support if they are not “with” the mother. Also, in most instances adoptions are not fully legal until both the mother and father have signed away their parental rights. Understanding that there are times when a woman should have control over what is happening with her body, but when she is in a relationship and finds herself pregnent by that person then the father should have some right in saying what should happen with that child.

  7. Kristina Says:

    Men, I do say sorry with reason. Please do not get offended to any of what I’m about to say.

    Men are about 83% more likely to run off and abandon mom and child. Females are plainly just more resposible in this area. And if males want more authority, more than what females grant them nowadays, then they will just have to show that they deserve it.

    Don’t get me wrong, some are responsible, but some are not. Like the ones that are failing high school, and are one day doing-it-everyday, until one day, he discovers a one-night stand is carrying his kid. Then the parents fight, kid turns out bad because of poor care, and it’s a sad story. Most cases are similar.

    Me, personally, if I ever get unconditionally pregnant while I’m unable to fully and totally provide for a child, I’d have to lose it. I want to watch my child grow, raised by ME and watch him having fun instead of suffering, and knowing it’s my fault.

    But, that’s just my opinion. =)

  8. Kristina Says:

    Sorry for double-posting. :)

    But, Mike, women bear children for a reason. Men tend to be more emotionally withheld, which is not appropriate to raise a young child. Women are made for the task. Men are made for supporting the woman for supporting the child. And if the relationship is onlt there because someone got knocked-up, then it’s doomed to be weak, therefore the child bieng raised into poverty, fighting, violence, and such.

    If you guys want to call the shots, show the world you deserve them.

    If you think you’re fit to support a child, and the mother dosen’t and doesn’t want to keep it, than how would you feel supporting it on your own, it you think you’re fit. Often, this is the case for women. They love thier child, but the guy can’t care less. Though I am grateful for the guys out there that are responsible and never think of doing these kinds of things. You are a rare breed. ;)

    Because there are so many irresponsible men out there is why you sadly do not the rights the good men deserve.

    Even though I have no children(I am waiting for the right husband and for the time I have a family home and food in the fridge for three), I would be infinatly protective of them, not allowing a single thing to let them frown. I can’t stand the sight of a suffering child.

    So, men, when you stop cheating, running off, and prove yourselves, the whole bunch of you in the world, is when you gain rights. Why do you never hear of women doing this?

    I fully understand how harsh I sound. But, again, I am infinitely protective of children, even if they are not my own.

    Sorry if I offended anyone out there. :)

  9. Pistol Pete Says:

    Ok, I’ll get blasted for this… marriage will eliminate virtually all the problems associated with sex. It IS the contract that affords both male and female reproductive rights (for the most part). Marriage is the agreement to accept the consequences of sex. I guess you could get a lawyer to write up a pre-sex contract, but that’s probably not as romantic.

  10. ryan Says:

    Alright, for one, the female gender needs to step off the soap box. It takes 2 count em’ 2… to cheat, 2 to raise a child, 2 to make a relationship work, I would be destroyed if the woman that I had gotten pregnant decided to KILL my child. Responsibility for life rests in the hands of ALL, not just one party. Blame is a double edged sword. Take that to the bank. To those of you out there with common sense please forgive my rash generalization of my perception of the views of self rightious women.

  11. ryan Says:

    … and yes. Men dserve the right to fight for the live’s of their children. Men and Women dont need to earn that right, its God given.

  12. fuzzy Says:

    Unfortunately, men don’t carry the child to term—so no, they don’t get a say. If they want to scoop it out of me and raise it independent of my uterus, sure…..they can have it…..but unpaid rent for 9 months on my body and the risk of death? nope……

  13. Wally Says:

    It’s funny to see how women on here think if they want the baby the man should have to pay for the rest the child. I agree, except if a woman wants to abort a child and the man wants to keep it, the man has no say even though it’s just as much his as it is hers. The choice for life should be able to be one sided, the choice for abortion should be decided by both. feminist are disgusting people who care more for control than equality

  14. Wally Says:

    Kristin, you made a bunch of bland assumptions. Fine, when women learn how to drive they can get car, when they learn not to bitch they can talk, when they learn not to be sluts they can have sex. BTW don’t say sorry if i offended anyone. You have the right to offend and the right to be offended, but not the right to not be offended.

  15. ms Says:

    “feminist are disgusting people who care more for control than equality”
    (beginning of a sentence, punctuation and capitalization unchanged)

    Wally, it is difficult to respect your opinion when you fail to make the subject of your sentence agree with its verb. I also have to wonder what you’re doing on this site if you believe that “feminist are disgusting people.”

    Perhaps the most amusing part of your hilariously un-self-aware comment is the assertion that feminists’ longing for control, not parity, so thoroughly gets your goat, which immediately follows your own belief that a man should be able to assert control over a woman’s body in the determination of whether or not she carries a fetus to term. Comedic gold.

  16. E. Says:

    So, men, when you stop cheating, running off, and prove yourselves, the whole bunch of you in the world, is when you gain rights. Why do you never hear of women doing this?

    Don’t be sexist, it’s disgusting. You hear plenty about women cheating, using men for their money, and what have you. Give us all a break – are you really going to base your argument on silly stereotypes? There are bad men and bad women. The proportions are, from everything I’ve seen, about equal.

    The problem with the way things are right now – as I think has already been said, it’s been a few days since I read most of these comments, sorry – is that post-conception the woman has all the power. She currently has the sole power to decide whether she and the man make a major financial and emotional investment for the next 18+ years or not – that’s a span of time well beyond the bound of the fetus being part of her body. This isn’t an equitable distribution of power between the genders, which I feel is a problem – after all, the idea is for men and women to be entirely equal, right? Not men having all the power in one area and women in another.

    Honestly? I’m not sure what the solution is. Clearly, forced abortions or after-the-fact opt-out clauses are out of the question – the former is a violation of personal rights, and the second shifts the power entirely the other way. Thoughts?

  17. Sammy Says:

    Thank you, Doug. Well said.

    To answer the question–No. But, I do think there needs to be better ways of delegating responsibility amongst the parents. Sexuality has gotten very casual and may remain that way for a while (whether right or not), so it’s likely that unplanned pregnancies will result. The woman controls the biological aspect of it (and that’s as it should be as her biological contribution is greater than a mans), while a man has more influence in providing. You need both to raise a child. But if a man decides he can’t provide for a child he shouldn’t be forced to. Nor should a woman be forced to carry to term if she doesn’t think she should.

    FYI-Someone mentioned that you need both parents to adopt out a child. That’s not true in all states. Some will allow one parent to legally adopt the child out to the other.

  18. Katherine Says:

    A child is a combination of half the mother’s genes, and half the father’s. Therefore, the man should have just as much say as the woman in what should be done in the case of an unplanned pregnancy. Men and women hold separate but equal roles in society, but somehow we as women have convinced ourselves that we are better than men. This is completely ridiculous and I am ashamed of the females out there who take it upon themselves to make an executive decision about a child that she has created with another person. You gave up your uterus when you decided to have sex. And I agree, marriage is the solution to this problem.

  19. Spes Says:

    I can’t agree that marriage is the solution. I simply don’t see how it is the solution. One can hardly reasonably claim that unplanned pregnancies don’t happen in marriages, because they do. One of the couple my want to keep the child while their spouse doesn’t feel it’s time yet. Also, what happens if the couple agreed they didn’t want children when they wed, but then after a child was conceived one of them changed their mind?
    I would greatly appreciate it if someone would explain EXACTLY how marriage ‘solves’ the issue of an unplanned pregnancy and equal say among partners.

  20. Katherine Says:

    Spes, after reading your post, I understand the lack of clarity in my claim that marriage is a solution. What I originally meant by that statement was that waiting until marriage to have sex can solve many problems of this nature. Maybe not in every instance (like the one you mentioned about one spouse changing his/her mind), but the main focus of this thread has become that of unwed, usually young, parents of an unborn child. Sure, it sucks that people get pregnant when they don’t want a kid. But why is it fair for the female to have full rights to her child’s life? Yes, she will be the one to carry the child through the pregnancy, but like I said before, you give up your uterus when you decide to have sex. If the father wants nothing to do with this child, then fine, the mother can have the rights. But if a mother decides she doesn’t want the baby, then the dad should get the right to decide whether or not to have his child killed or adopted, or if he wants to keep it himself. Sorry for the double post. Just wanted to clear things up.

  21. Elizabeth Says:

    I do believe that men should have a say in what happens to a child they helped to create. The thing is, I am really not sure how exactly to translate that into legal rights. I personally would take into consideration the opinion of the father in the case of an unplanned pregnancy. My decision would not be based entirely on his opinion but it would go into consideration. But as a woman, I cannot say I would be able to agree with a law that says I HAVE to have an abortion if he doesn’t want it, OR that I HAVE to carry the child to term if he wants it. Both an abortion and a pregnancy, for me anyway, would be a HUGE deal.

    But then again, I have an uncle whose first wife aborted their child without his consent and he was completely crushed. He even offered to raise the child on his own with no involvement from her (they were in the middle of their divorce when she found out) but she chose to end her pregnancy. So it’s a huge deal for us women, but honestly, it’s a huge deal for men too. I just don’t know how to resolve this issue… Which is probably true for MOST of us – hence the reason there isn’t a law about this.

  22. Ben Says:

    hole thing is fucked up needs to be changed.We all came from the nut sack and the egg its 50/50 thing women need to face and own up and change how it works

  23. Spes Says:

    I’d try to rebuttal, Ben, but alas, you seem to have not read any of my previous posts, so it seems futile to have an argument with the village idiot.

    As for marriage, I know I didn’t give up my rights and agree to become a submissive, witless, obedient wife when I wed, so I can’t agree that marriage solves this issue at all. Also, I am appalled that anyone would/could think that a woman ‘gives up her uterus’ by having sex. This is tantamount to stating that a man gives up his paycheck when he has sex, only worse. What century are we in again? I recall we females had a long hard—and continuous—battle to not be treated as brood mares, to have rights in spite of what her father, husband, or brothers may demand of her. I’m all for a man having a say in whether he wants to help raise a child or not, but I’m not about to let ANYONE, even my husband, have the right to decide if I choose to carry a child to term.

  24. Doug Says:

    I agree with Spes, she has a very legimitate point. Marriage and waiting until marriage does nothing to give a man say in the matter. The argument is moot. So Katherine, my suggestion is to re-read Spes’s comments and mine on the matter, and brush up a little on the law. Men don’t currently have a choice, and it’s not fair BUT (and it’s a big but) nobody has the right to make a woman carry a child she doesn’t want to, or be forced into doing anything that jeopardizes her health.

  25. Katherine Says:

    I appreciate the thoughtful debate. I don’t think that an issue this emotional and complex can be resolved over the internet, nor do I believe any of us intend for it to be. We (most of us on here, anyway) are clearly open to hearing the other opinion. I think I have sufficiently given mine, and I have also openly read the opposition. My opinion has not shifted, but I now have a better understanding of other viewpoints on the matter. I think that is the entire point of this thread – to educate people on the ideas of others.
    And just to respond to Doug – I understand the current law about this issue. I think you’re getting a little too hung up on what the law IS, and not on what it SHOULD be. If this was a discussion on the current law, it would have ended after one post. If you read the opening question, it is calling for the differing opinions of people who care to give one.

  26. Doug Says:

    The reason I’m hung up on what the law is, is that this forum is about what the law should be for men in this scenario. I’m not talking about repealing Roe vs. Wade because this discussion is about what rights men deserve as fathers. I feel they should have the same rights as women do, which they currently do not. Marriage does not give a man the right to control his spouse or when and where she will bring progeny into the world. Nor does open communication with his partner guarantee him equal rights in this occasion. Eventually, the primary decision about what he will have to do with HIS life boils down to whatever SHE decides. If I am correct, this is the main point behind the women’s rights movements of the last century, just inverted.

  27. Madamoiselle L Says:

    I hate arguing about “abortion” because people are so set in their ideas that it is nearly impossible to talk about this issue without people becoming irate.

    I have one thing to say. The biggest risk a woman takes, during an unwanted pregnancy is losing her livelihood, her freedom, and her ability to obtain a partner and even her LIFE.

    The biggest risk a man takes when an unwanted pregnancy continues is opening his checkbook and spending some money on his offspring.

    The RISKS are not the same. Not even close.

  28. M Says:

    Okay, I don’t have kids, but I think if the father wants the child to live and the mother doesn’t, then she can have the baby and the dad can take care of it for the rest of its life. If the mom wants it alive, and the dad doesn’t, the mom should get it and raise it. In both of these circumstances there shouldn’t have to be any paying of money to the parent that raises it.

    As for abortion, both parents should want this for it to happen. If one parent doesn’t want abortion, it can take care of it. Honestly, if a guy I was with knocked me up and wanted me to get rid of it when I didn’t, I really wouldn’t want to continue the relationship, and I would pray to god it looks like me.

  29. Madamoiselle L Says:

    OK, M (and this is a common situation) what if NEITHER parents want to pay for the child, and one of the doesn’t “believe” in terminating pregnancy?

  30. Spes Says:

    And another question M, if you wanted to get an abortion and the father wanted to keep it, would you really be willing to carry it to term and then hand it over after delivery? And who would pay for all those medical bills, anyway? Last I checked, welfare folks aside, childbirth and prenatal care aren’t free.

  31. Doug Says:

    Not to mention, M, the inherit risks involving childbirth. Whether or not you recognize it, some (a very very small eprcentage but still) people do die during the process, and anything other than a routine, natural birth brings on thousands of dollars in medical bills on top of the thousands of dollars in medical bills the mother has already incurred. I’ve said it before, punishing children for the rest of their lives for one bad decision their parent made is unimaginably horrible. Of course, it’s not unimaginable, given that you and so many others have advocated it. I always thought punishing the sun for the sins of the father ended when we stepped away from aristocracy…..

  32. richard ludwig Says:

    i have a girlfriend and we frequently fuck each others brains out, and she got pregnant by me. she and i agreed that i would have 100% equal say and rights when it comes to the baby she is carrying and its future.

  33. M. the Smarmy Brat Says:

    You can’t ask a woman to be an incubator. Its wrong.Pregnancy completely changes your body. Its just not that simple.

  34. Dave Says:

    I have given a great deal of consideration to this topic. Primarily because I have fallen on the opposite side of the topic then the original argument suggests.
    I was the receipient of news, after the fact, that my significant other had aborted our child. No consultation, no in depth conversation, just a “can you come get me from the hospital” phone call.
    I have always had a belief that abortions were, at best, on the iffy side of morality. But I am Pro-Choice when it comes to the legal side of the issue.

    I believe that in order to settle the debate you would have to create equal laws. Either a man has the choice and is responsible fiscally, or he has no choice and cannot be held fiscally responsible. To only allow the choice to be the woman’s and to hold the male resposible for her choices hardly seems to be an equitable solution.

  35. Jesse Says:

    Males have reproductive rights. No one can make you be a father if you don’t want to be.

    Quite some years ago, after having had two kids (my personal limit), my wife (who also didn’t really want any more) announced that, should she become pregnant again, she and she alone would make the decision whether or not to have the baby, and I would have no say.

    Shortly thereafter, I made an appointment with a urologist to find out about a vasectomy. Told the wife I was having it. She hit the roof. How, how could I make such a decision without involving her? I calmly announced that it was my body, and she had absolutely no say whatsoever in what I chose to do with it. If she was going to make decisions about pregnancy without me, then I for sure wasn’t taking chances on getting her pregnant any more!

    I had it done. She calmed down. One of the best things I (we) ever did.

  36. Jennifer Says:

    Men do have the right whether or not to become fathers. Condoms and vasectomies work to keep you a non-parent. A surrogate mother and egg donor will work to make you a father.
    I personally know of a middle class woman in America with great pre-natal care who died in child birth. She bled to death. Men do not and should not have a say in if a woman carries to term because their health and life is not on the line. Usually a healthy woman has no problems with pregnancy but that is not always the case.

  37. lala Says:

    Hi i think that alot of situations are where a woman gets pregnant because of lies she has told a man and then expects a man to support and want her child i think men should get together and fight for thier rights…i am a woman but that is just how i feel…i think that men should not have to take care of or support a child if he didnt want it especially if he was set up and im tired of ppl saying that u cant set a man up…yes you can for one example women telling men they are on birth control now if the man just met the girl and trust her yeah he is stupid but still should have rights…but i know a man that was with a women for almost a year and he even bought her birth control for her and she lied and just didnt use it and got pregnant and ran off and now has him paying support and no he doesnt want the child because he was set up…and i feel that is just fine for him to feel that way and i think that he shouldnt have to suffer because of her and i have been looking things up to find help for him because he is a good friend and needs some help…i know even if i get somthin started to help men get rights it probably wont go through anyones head but i feel its worth a try and so does he!!!!anyone wanna help? :)

  38. Black Iris Says:

    The only way men can protect themselves is to wear a condom every time they have sex until they’re married.

    For centuries, women have had to cope with the baby if they got pregnant. In fact, the woman will still probably end up doing most of the work raising the child. Unless she has a baby with a wealthy man, she probably isn’t going to get enough child support to actually support the child.

    Ultimately, though, I don’t think men should have a right to say no to supporting the baby because that would put pressure on the mother to have an abortion.

    I would make two exceptions:

    1) If the woman snuck into the man’s room one night and stole his semen while he slept; and

    2) If the woman had an affair with a man she knew was married, particularly if he already has kids. His money is not actually just his. Whether or not the mistress’ baby gets money should be up to the wife.

  39. Black Iris Says:

    On a more practical note – if given the choice, how many guys would opt for, I will be a father to this unplanned pregnancy? A few, but I would think most would just say no.

  40. Spes Says:

    Sorry Black Iris but “The only way men can protect themselves is to wear a condom every time they have sex until they’re married,” is unfortunately a very inaccurate statement. As more than one person can testify to, condoms are NOT 100% protection against anything. Also, men, just like women, should have rights after getting married, too. A wife can just as easily lie about being on birth control and a one-night stand, except that (one would hope) the wife would be more apt to be trusted by her partner. Men simply shouldn’t have to pay the price (quite literally with child support) for a choice made by someone else.
    In short let’s be fair, if a man can’t force a woman to carry a baby she doesn’t want, then a woman shouldn’t be able to force a man to pay for a baby he doesn’t want.

  41. Christina Says:

    The issue of abortion and everything it entails is obviously an emotional and complex one. However, there is absolutely no need for male reproductive rights. If a man doesn’t want a child, he can choose not to have sex. He can choose to wear a condom. He has choices, they just occur before the fertilization of an egg. A woman is in a completely different situation, because she’s the one who has to carry about the fetus for 9 months. She’s the one who has to go through the trauma and agonizing pain of labor and childbirth.

    I have to wonder how many men are out there who have a girlfriend who aborted a fetus and would’ve wanted to raise the eventual child as a single father. I’d guess very few. The bottom line is that if you’re 100% against abortion, then don’t have sex. If you choose to have sex you have to realize that, should the woman get pregnant, you will either be a father or she will choose an abortion. You can also choose not to sleep with someone who doesn’t share your views on abortion.

    So, men have plenty of choices. They just occur before the sex rather than after.

  42. Doug Says:

    I’m sorry Christina, but saying that if a man doesn’t want a child he just shouldn’t have sex has no weight as an argument. Mainly, it’s because women have the same option; unless you think that the only sex women have is rape, in which case what the hell? Women can choose not to have sex until they’re ready for a child too. Women can also choose to use birth control and quite literally every other form of pregnancy protection available to a man. However, there is one thing that a woman can choose to do that a man cannot, and that is to terminate the pregnancy. If a man is with a woman and doesn’t want a child, and she gets pregnant and decides to keep it, he’s out of luck. If he’s with a woman and wants a child and she decides to abort it, he’s out of luck. And please keep in mind that child support is a significant amount of money coming out of his bank account, that he has no way of avoiding if she gets pregnant. Where she CAN choose to avoid the pain, cost and tribulations of a child, he has no say in the matter; and I thought we were guaranteed equal rights under the law.

    Nobody in their right mind on here has suggested that a man could make a woman carry a child to term. Not only is that dangerous and an extreme investment that violates so many personal rights as to be absurd; it’s also patently horrifying to think that anyone could feel that forcing a child upon a woman is an acceptable way to go about things. Also, nobody with any sort of conscience has suggested that a man could force a woman to have an abortion for the same reasons. All that we have suggested is giving the man the same rights as a woman in regards to “terminating” the pregnancy. That is, a man should, for one, know about his child if the woman decides to keep it before she gives birth to it. And the woman and her doctor’s office should be legally required to notify him (but only if she’s keeping it, he doesn’t have to be notified if she gets an abortion). Then this man should be able to express his choice in the matter in the form of terminating his obligation to the child. He would inform the court, within a certain time period and always well before the child was born, that he will cede his rights as a parent; an act which includes a restraining order placed against him preventing him from initiating contact with the child or the mother. If the mother decides she wants him in her life she can exercise her rights to do so, but when he refuses financial obligation he has no rights as a parent.

    This gives both men and women the opportunity to remove from their life the burden of raising an unplanned child; something which men currently have no right to do but women have had for decades.

  43. Madamoiselle L Says:

    Doug said: “And please keep in mind that child support is a significant amount of money coming out of his bank account, that he has no way of avoiding if she gets pregnant”

    Opening a check book and writing a check is NOTHING compared to carrying a term pregnancy, going through labor and delivery, learning to take care and feed a child, make sure the child is properly raised, OR going through the trauma of abortion.

    ANYBODY can write a damn check. It never can compare to gestating and caring for a child, nor aborting a pregnancy.

    Allowing men to “terminate their parental rights” only hurts the child and the woman and would put even more women and children into poverty.

    The RESULTS of unprotected sex are simply NOT equal for men and women. Neither are the responsibilities. Therefor, writing a check is about 1000000000 times less life altering and important to the one writing it than either terminating or gestating and caring for a child.

    Some guys think their bank account is MORE important than THEIR OWN CHILD going without? Damn, yeah, these men should NOT be having sex. Sorry.

  44. Doug Says:

    I’m not saying that paying pretty much a second rent payment every month is the same as caring for a child, but it’s still a burden that the guy has no choice but to take on. And if you say, Well, HE SHOULDN’T HAVE HAD SEX please keep in mind that this is the same reasoning people had for years to keep teenage mothers from seeking abortions and keep people from purchasing condoms. We can’t punish people for somebody else’s choices. We live in a society where any mother CHOSE to have that child. No woman, as per the law of the land, HAS to have a child they do not want to have. Why shouldn’t the guy have that same option? Should one sex have more power than the other or should it be equal? I think the country spent most of the 19th and 20th centuries fighting for equal rights for everyone; why not finish the job?

  45. Madamoiselle L Says:

    OK, he can HAVE sex, as long as he takes responsibility for his actions. Taking out one’s check book is the LEAST DIFFICULT part of having children.

    OR, make sure the woman you’re having sex with agrees, “If you get pregnant, I don’t want you to have an abortion, but I don’t want to have to support the kid even a little, either. So, you and junior are on your own. Now, let’s get it on, baby.” That will go over well!

    As for a “second rent” payment, I don’t know where you get that. A few of my divorced friends get child support and are getting little more than a couple of hundred a month. (and a lot of these guys miss every other payment.) You can’t find an apartment for even a quarter that, here. I know no child who can actually BE supported on Child Support even half. And, we are STILL comparing MONEY to someone’s ability to be fed, clothed, comparing MONEY to carrying a child in your womb, pushing that child out, (and maybe dying in the process) or being scarred for life by a C Section or a 3rd degree vaginal tear, or worse. There is still no comparison between putting some MONEY out there and gestating and caring for a child.

  46. Johnny Says:

    Don’t underestimate the emotional trauma of living broke because of an unwanted financial burden. I’d say that paying thousands and thousands over the course of 18 years for reasons you opposed from the start is as traumatic as any abortion. Joe Stack?

  47. Madamoiselle L Says:

    Johnny said: “I’d say that paying thousands and thousands over the course of 18 years for reasons you opposed from the start is as traumatic as any abortion.” I highly doubt that. And I don’t KNOW any men who “go broke” from the little they are asked from the court to pay for child support. It is usually based on the man’s income, (a certain percentage, usually VERY small) and no judge is going to leave the father “broke.”

    In fact in most divorces, with children and child support, the MEN’S financial worth rises by at least 30% to 40% or more and the woman’s financial status usually DROPS by up to 80%.

    Ain’t no men going “broke” by simply paying to do a little to help the child THEY helped create.

    And NO amount of money can be compared to either the physical and emotional trauma of pregnancy and childbirth and raising a child OR an abortion. It’s just not even close to the same. It’s just freakin’ money. You’d think men who complain about these things would realize THEIR CHILD’S standard of living depends on this little inconvenience of them having to open their damn check books.

    A lot of good men DO realize this, and help support their children with NO complaints.

    If it’s that bad wear a condom, get a vas or only date women who wouldn’t mind raising YOUR child on their own, but don’t expect to have any say in what that child does, or how he is raised if one can’t even help PAY for his upbringing.

  48. Spes Says:

    Oh dear, Madamoiselle L. You seemed to have made some very poor assumptions. Firstly, you’ve only addressed the situation as it applies to those men having been involved in a divorce. NOT all children are conceived during wedlock. Also, contrary to your unreferenced statistics, I do know more than one man who cannot afford to pay their child support. Don’t misunderstand, I don’t condone dead-beat dads, especially having had one myself. However, this discussion is NOT about paying for children already delivered. This discussion is about making choices and having rights after the child is conceived but before it is delivered. Stating that if a man wants to have sex and not have children he should just wear a condom is a terribly ignorant statement. I should think by your age you would be aware that condoms aren’t 100%, which is why they’re called UNPLANNED pregnancies. If just wearing a condom took care of issue every time, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

    Madamoiselle L: “OK, he can HAVE sex, as long as he takes responsibility for his actions. Taking out one’s check book is the LEAST DIFFICULT part of having children.” Yes, you are correct, which is maybe why he doesn’t want to have a child in the first place.
    If a woman gets pregnant and wants to keep the child despite the fact that the man doesn’t, then she should expect to raise it on her own. If it’s not right to force motherhood on a woman, then it’s not right to force fatherhood on a man. If she doesn’t want to raise a child on her own, then she should have an abortion (which I believe the man should pay at least half of, if he wants the abortion, too). This is because she should have to take responsibility for HER own actions, as well. If a woman doesn’t like the risk of pregnancy and/or abortion, then SHE can give up sex.
    There are ALWAYS risks involved in having sex (yes, even when one is married). We must all take PERSONAL responsibility for our own choices and accept the risks involved. But at no point do we have the right to force our decisions on others anymore than they have the right to force their’s on us.

  49. Madamoiselle L Says:

    Spes said: “Oh dear, Madamoiselle L. You seemed to have made some very poor assumptions. Firstly, you’ve only addressed the situation as it applies to those men having been involved in a divorce” end quote

    NO, I was using it as a reference. Many child support cases NOT the result of marriage never end up in court. I used THIS as a way to show that even in divorce (when the child support tends to be larger than a child born to a mother who was never married to the father) the amounts paid by the man are SMALL. (Do you HAVE kids? Do you KNOW how much work it is to gestate, lactate for, feed, clothe, shelter and nurture them? If you did, I cannot see how you can compare writing a damn check to RAISING A HUMAN BEING!)

    Not to mention that PAYING MONEY simply cannot be compared to the physical, emotional and other issues involved in being the one being pregnant and taking care of a child.

    How many guys can’t get dates because the have to pay child support? Few. How many women see men run like hell when they mention THEY have children? Many. This is only ONE of the obstacles single moms face. I could name about 10000 which “single dads” never face. Especially the ones whose ONLY claim on “Fatherhood” is their reluctance to open their check books.

    You said: “If it’s not right to force motherhood on a woman, then it’s not right to force fatherhood on a man.” Writing a check is NOT FATHERHOOD! It’s just doing a LITTLE TINY BIT to make sure your own spawn gets to eat a little. True Fatherhood is a LOT tougher than opening one’s checkbook. Real Men make an effort and take real care of the child and be part of the child’s life, small men write a check, whiny babies refuse to even do that little.

    I’m not an idiot, I was making a comparison and using divorce related child support as an reference.

    Sorry, but I know women (and I think we all know) with kids who get NOTHING and live in poverty because the children’s father won’t pay child support, (and many of these men live quite well) but I don’t know a single solitary man who lives in poverty purely because of his child support.

    When will some people stop thinking that there it is any more than a minor inconvenience, and no comparison to actually RAISING a CHILD, to simply write a check to make sure one’s OWN CHILD is properly cared for?

    I’m flabbergasted so many people (and even a woman) would think putting out a little money is comparable to gestating and taking care of a child. It’s the least a man can do. The VERY least. And no responsible man should complain about having to do so.

  50. Madamoiselle L Says:

    Like I said before, men who want NO financial responsibility for a child accidentally conceived, then let THIS be what he NEEDS to say to any hook up or girlfriend he wants to have sex with, and make sure she agrrees: “If you get pregnant, I don’t want you to have an abortion, but I don’t want to have to support the kid even a little, either. So bothersome. So, you and junior are on your own. You cool with that? Good. Now, let’s get it on, baby.”

    Good luck.

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