8/31/09
Writer Defends Adulterers, Calls the Rest of Us “Holier Than Thou”

If you’ve listened to Howard Stern even once over the past decade (that’d be Em, not Lo), then you know that one of his most loyal advertisers is the Ashley Madison Agency — the online dating site that caters to married people with the tagline “Life is short. Have an affair.” Charming. On and off over the years, we’ve thought about reporting on Ashley Madison, but every time we did, steam would come out of our ears and we’d realize that our entire article would consist of seven words, most likely typed in all caps: “Stop cheating you slimeball pieces of shit.” Just because the site sounds like it was named by Nora Roberts, as Jezebel so brilliantly notes, doesn’t mean it’s any less sleazy, immoral, unethical, or just plain wrong. Fortunately not everyone is as “narrow-minded” as we are; Melanie Berliet, a writer for Vanity Fair recently investigated the site to find out why men cheat, which involved interviewing men who said things like “I’m a big believer in monogamy through adultery.”

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130 Comments

  1. Speaking as an English guy living in London I can honestly say that it is really hard to maintain a monogamous relationship for a long amount of time. I managed 12 years but then I saw many of my friends having a bit of fun and it seemed to brighten their day and I thought ‘why not?” I am not proud of my attitude but it means that I am more likely to say with my wife.
    I now have a longterm safe marital affair with a married woman I met on a business trip – it will never annoy either of our marriages.

  2. “What are you supposed to do if you still have a healthy sex drive and desire for sex which your partner does not share? Divorce them? Coerce them?”

    The whole point of divorce is to leave an unhappy marriage, so yeah? If you can’t fathom being faithful to your spouse for whatever reason, then you should seek an honest resolution, either through counseling or divorce. Or just don’t get married in the first place. Absolutely no one said a bad thing about open relationships, and in fact several people (including Em and Lo) made it quite clear that non-monogamous relationships are fine as long as everyone involved knows what’s going on and agrees to it. The very essence of cheating is dishonesty, and that’s what makes it unquestionably wrong. There’s nothing self-righteous about condemning it because it’s an incredibly selfish and hurtful thing to do to someone. If you want to have your cake and eat it too, find a partner who you know won’t have an issue with you having sex outside of the marriage. They do exist, and they’re relatively easy to find nowadays. But trying to force your preferences on someone who insists on sexual fidelity isn’t doing them a favor, it’s being an a-hole of the first degree. Lies and secrecy do not a healthy relationship make.

  3. People in happy, fulfilling relationships don’t cheat. Keep that, rather than old fashioned words such as ‘duty’ and ‘loyalty’ as your mantra. There are probably millions of marriages out there that are, whilst not abusive, physically or emotionally unfulfilling for one or both partners. We live in a society that embraces sexual freedom and choice, where sexual innuendo and imagery is everywhere, but we still cling to the belief that being in a long term relationship somehow switches of the parts of your brain that find people other than your spouse or partner attractive.

    Monogamy is not a universal norm, and, even in societies with supposedly strict codes of sexual fidelity, there have always been practices society turns a blind eye to. There are many traditional cultures that have allowed, or even embraced and encouraged, non-monogamous relationships and sex with other partners than your spouse/main partner.

    Sexual desire is an inescapable part of our human nature, and there are thousands of people trapped in relationships where their partner is unresponsive to their sexual needs. What are you supposed to do if you still have a healthy sex drive and desire for sex which your partner does not share? Divorce them? Coerce them?

    I’m not saying we should all run out and cheat, just that maybe we should try and be a bit more understanding and a bit less self-righteous and actually think about how we treat our partners and how we respond to their sexual desire or lack of.

  4. … I am one of a married people you know. I’m a successful businessman who has great family, two beautiful children and a great career. My marriage became sexless around fifteen years ago as my wife had no desire for sex and I finally gave up after years of begging. Being completely frustrated, five years ago I started looking through married dating sites and eventually began having an affair with a woman who was also in a sexless marriage. I was not looking for a new partner every day, neither I was interested in leaving my family or breaking somebody else. Our five-year monogamous relationship likely saved both our marriages…

  5. James say’s it all for us women & men. If my husband of 16 years cheated I would be devastated but I would still like to know and have a choice weather to stay and fix our relationship or leave because the cheater WILL be found out sooner or later.

  6. as far as i am concerned – i sincerely and seriously hope and pray that ortons kids(and his church for that matter – if he even goes to one) knows or finds about it because this is dirty laundry that needs to be publically aired for all to know about. no better tool to keep married couples on the straight and narrow path than public embarassment and humiliation.

  7. OMG
    Please listen to the children,because I can tell you they are watching and listening and they know whats going on.

    I went through 20 years with a philandering husband who would verbally and emotionally abuse me in front of the children. when my eldest completed her uni degree. She stepped in and told me to dump her dad.

    She said many things that hurt all because I had thought my staying in the marriage would be better for the children, How wrong I was.

    Both children were so happy with the divorce. They knew about his affairs from young even though I never mentioned it when they were around.

    Today my girl refuses to speak to her dad, and my son calls him an asshole after he heard his father yelling at me in public.

    We reap what we sow. Lust or lack of responsibility , who knows –

    In our lords prayer we say ” lead us not into temptation”

  8. Kim.

    Thanks for your kind words. I believe this issue is a matter of honesty and courage. Courage to do things the right way, courage to work things out, and courage when the time comes to accept things have no other solution but an amicable dissolution.
    No amicable dissolution could take place if there is cheating involved, and the perpetrator is found in blatant connivance.
    So the cheater is not only disrespecting his loved ones, he/she is paving the road for a divorse war and the man, if he is the cheater, is walking strait to the cleaners, in which case I do not blame the party turning on the cleaners switch .
    We accepted and in the case of men, we got on our knees to promise the best of the world to that woman we chose. Women did same by accepting the offer, and the decision was made to live together and love each other.
    If for some reason the situation stops working, and all avenues for repair have been exhausted, then it is time for an amicable dissolution, if it comes to that point.
    Cheating, we already talked about it, that is the avenue for the coward to remain in posession of phisical belongings, while avoiding reality.

  9. james, I just love you! I love your thoughts on this subject and am happy that there is a wonderful voice of reason. Life is much happier if you just do the right thing, no matter how small the choice is to do so.

  10. Orton.

    You are a funny person.

    A guy with no morals wants to teach his kids openness.
    A guy with no morals wants to teach others what true love and marriage life is all about.
    A guy with no morals talks about disease and the dangers of it.

    The lesson you are giving your daughters is to accept a cheater and abusive spouse, to be submissive and to be attracted to that kind of abusive man. You are distroying her life by imprinting in her mind the seeds of destruction. She will ne ver know, or it might take her years to learn why she is attracted to lying cheating men that are abusing and demeaning.
    The lesson you are giving your sons is a lesson on how to cheat, how to be a lying womanizer, and how to disrespect a woman that you chose as wife.

    Your explanation about cheating in order to keep a home together is as stupid as a thief’s explanation of his robberies with stories about poverty and living in a poor area of town.

    All your bravado and your insults are nothing but the shield behind which a coward that is afraid of losing his phisical home, his confort, hides behind.

    Like a thief, you operate under secrecy, and you are not man enough to face your wife, your children, and rreality, so you profess bravado, and cheat on your wife, contaminate the young minds of your children, and deny yourself of the opportunity to become a real man, by portraying yourself as the victim, the poor guy that is misunderstood by his wife, the guy that is subjected to “celibacy” ( as you erroneously use as terminology ), a victim of his wife’s lack of interest in sex.

    That is not what you got married for Mr. Had that been the case, you should had warned your wife that upon a few years you would had or reserve the right to find sex outside the home.

    When you laugh about the word Diseases, let me remind you that catching herpes on your side can easily spread to your entire family by use of bathroom towels, eating utensiles, etc.

    In summary, you are the classical portrayal of a coward man, that boasts and conveys an image of manly man, a happy family, while in reality you are a sad individual, whom is subjecting his wife to humilliation, cajoling his friends and family into a false image of a happy family, disrespecting your children, and cowering behind ludicrous stories about european families that supposedly cheat by agreement, only to keep your false fazade in place.

    What a coward, smells funky in here.
    And like a real coward does, blames his wife for the situation, and while he indoctrinates and destroys the lives of his loved ones in the process ( he is to coward of a man to face reality ) he heralds a preposterous message about him being the home protector, the one that requires a medal for his great efforts into maintaining his home together.

    Your kids would be better off w/o you, you are the worse thing that can happen to them.

    Yes Mr macho man, I bet you could apply your theories of home maintenance with a role reversal. Why not allowing your wife to have men on the side? I bet your wife does not want any sex with you because you are in a slob of a state.
    Perhaps your wife should start meeting with other men so she can see what she is missing out, and you should accept it, because, if your wife goes out with other men and has fun getting what she can not and will never find in you, she would be doing so “out of Love” as you say, just to keep the home together.

    If you are so sure about your theories, you should allow your wife to go out and enjoy the company of other men. Or do you think that only men can cheat, is it that?

  11. I’d also like to point out that it is called ABSTINENCE when you don’t have sex for a while. It is only called celibacy when you choose to NOT have sex OR get married/partnered with someone.

    I wish people would stop “confusing” the two. A celibate person will NOT choose to have sex or partner. If they did, they would be ABSTINENT.

  12. Orton – I don’t know where you live so I can’t refute that, but like I said – in YOUR specific case it is probably incredibly likely that in a divorce your wife would get the kids, because any divorce lawyer worth his salt is going to point out that you likely spent money on your lover, that you chose to participate in an act that was anti-family and use your affair to paint you as a bad father. I don’t know if that’s true or not, it’s just what would probably happen. I am just saying that IN GENERAL it is not extremely more likely that a mother would get the kids in the average divorce, because judges look at who can be the best primary parent for the child, and that can often be the father.

    Personally – no matter what is going on in your life – sorry, but what you are showing your kids is not openness. You are showing them how one should treat their spouse – which to you, means lying. Teaching your children to be open isn’t done by deceit.

    And finally – Not everyone in Europe has lovers, but those who do generally have spouses who are aware of what is going on. It is a different situation than someone LYING. If a wife asks where her husband is, she will be told the truth. Which I doubt is something you afford to your wife. You can’t really compare the two.

    Bottom line: Orton, if you really believed most of the things you said up there, you wouldn’t be lying to your wife. Getting your sexual needs fulfilled elsewhere isn’t cruel if everyone is aware of what’s going on.

  13. Elizabeth,
    In my state the custody rate for mothers is much higher than 52%.
    I find it curious how judgmental and accusatory people who post on these forums can be. I am not like you James you whimpering simp.
    Families are not always about who is sleeping with whom In Europe it is quite common to take a lover. Get over it.

    If you are a swan and mate for life and can suffer a period of celibacy spanning a decade or more fine you can win the lost youth monk award and while you are at it why not beat yourself senseless with birch switches.

    Too many families are torn apart by sexual affairs. The world does not come to a crashing end because you have a lover.

    James is so afraid of disease he must wrap himself in latex every time he leaves the house or jacks himself off.

    It seems to me if you live your life in a black and white world you are missing a hell of a lot of interesting colors.

    I am teaching my children to be open to life and willing to embrace it.

    Good luck with your lives.

  14. Oh – and to further clarify what I meant about that comment – I am not in any way, shape or form saying that I agree with, condone or would participate in the kind of behavior Orton is partaking in. All I am saying is that most women who have been deeply emotionally intimate with a man are aware when something fishy is going on. They might not know what, but they get it… Orton has flat out said he’s not told his wife. I’m saying that if everything he’s said is true – she probably knows he’s getting it elsewhere somehow and chooses to ignore it.

    I agree with what James is saying about the message they are sending to their kids. It’s sad, because they are telling their children how men and women should act and should be treated. And I agree with the previous poster that if both parties are willing, therapy can work wonders. But, Orton has said that he and his wife have tried that. (This is why I believe she knows. If she’s been informed that her husband “needs” sex, then unless she’s an idiot, she knows he’s doing something about it) He’s made it sound like SHE is the reason therapy doesn’t work.

    I will disagree on one thing though – it is actually about 52% of mothers who get custody of their children in the case of divorce. This varies a bit from state to state, but it is only a little above 50% in each case. In Orton’s case, however – it is more likely his wife would win custody, primarily because of his adultery. It is often used as a weapon in custody battles. Again – I would just say that he and his wife should divorce, because that sounds like a screwed up relationship to me – but, I am not them.

  15. guys i have been married for 7yrs and we almost didn’t make it because my wife got a little to friendly with a male stripper..now this wasn’t as bad as an affair but it still hurt like hell i nearly left her but we have ben seeing a marriage counselor for 5 months and believe it or not it works if you are both willing to work at it.. one thing i have always known is that women like attention and some need it more than others and yes we were both ignoring each other..i am still head over heels in love with her and thank god i found out about it before it became something worse..bootom line to both men and women who are married if you are having trouble communicating with each other please consider counseling there is nothing to be ashamed of in admithing that you two are having problems..am i happy at what happend no but if i had to do it all over again i would because it is what saved us..good luck to all people in realtionships and i know just how bad it hurts when you are betrayed..

  16. Kb – In the situation with my friend, her man has never told her. They aren’t in an open relationship, technically. She knows what is happening, and chooses to ignore it. If what Orton says is true, his wife seems to be the same kind of woman. My friend would never grant her man permission to sleep around if he asked, but she is willing to overlook indiscretions. I don’t get it, but like I said, I’m pretty sure women like that are rather rare.

  17. I join you KB on that statement. This guy has never advised his wife about the situation. Had his wife new about it this would be a different topic.
    Like many cowards, the new topic would be “How do I get my wife back”….
    And like you said KB, even if he is not having sex with his wife, there are plenty of diseases that need no sexual contact to spread all over a family.
    The fact that some couples are so petrified in fear about losing their confort and their closeness to their kids ( that closeness to their kids in fact is detrimental to them. The worse thing that can happen to a growing child is to grow up next to a cheating father or mother. )… is no valid reason to engage in such selfish ( selfish because the parents, the adults in the relationship are deciding that the kids can and should endure the infidelity problems ) compromise.

    A kid living with a cheating parent learns it is ok to cheat, and from the cheated parent they learn that it is just as ok to accept a cheating spouse.

    There are more serious consecuences, and the lack of respect, the callousness and the terrible messages these kids will receive day in and day out are not only wrong, these are criminal behavious on part of said parents.

    When you bring kids to the world, you no longer, never ever again have the luxury of thinking in terms of yourself, never ever. You want sex , but you do not like your spouse, ( but you have children ) then, either fix the situation with that spouse, or else, divorse. You might not like it, but your kids need not be indoctrinated in cheating and in no values.

    No amount of words comming from cheating parents will erase the message kids are receiving every day from said parents.

    At no time Orto has said, mentioned nor implied that his wife is knowledgeable and has compromised to a relationship where he is allowed to stray.

    And even if so, there are kids involved. A couple w/o children can do as they wish, but if kids are in between, it is not a valid situation.

  18. but, Elizabeth, the thing is he doesn’t-if she’d really rather he sleep around than compromise, he’d tell her and she’d go “meh, have fun” but that’s not what he’s offering. and THAT is what I have a problem with-no, not everyone has to be monogamous. Whatever. but your partner has the right to know what kind of relationship they’re having, and has the right to know what kind of medical risks they’re being exposed to. End of story. He’s taking the cowards way of dealing with what, you’re right, is a legitimate marriage problem.

  19. Orton’s explained why he lies to his wife. For whatever reason, he paints her as the type of woman who would rather him sleep around than compromise. I won’t deny that those women exist – I actually know one in person, who is well aware her man has fun outside the bedroom, but prefers it to having sex with him. It’s not something I remotely understand, but it’s her life.

    That being said – I fully believe that Orton’s case, as the case with my friend, are ridiculously rare. I fully believe that most men who cheat do it out of a desire to avoid dealing with whatever is plaguing their relationship (women too). And I believe that most people who agree to be with married men or women on the side have either low self esteem, or absolutely no caring for any other human being than themselves.

    I do hope for Orton’s sake that his children never find out about his discreet little meetings. Because I can say for absolute certain – the kids aren’t going to care if mommy never wanted to ride the pony so to speak… All they are going to see is that daddy betrayed her, and they will hate him for it. Kids don’t tend to forgive their parents’ indiscretions in that area.

  20. Orton-if you have such a deeper commitment, why are you lying? all that is bullsh**. You seem to be the one who doesn’t understand what marriage is about.

  21. James you are a self involved idiot . You obviously are not in a relationship or have been in anything more than a relationship that has lasted more than a few months Your idea of what constitutes marriage is so shallow and narcissistic it is quite laughable.

    To think a relationship is all about sex is stupid and and to try to explain to you what a deeper commitment meams in the real world is apparently in-effable.

    You are such a narrow minded petty person. I pity anyone who ends up with you .

  22. I just want to add, a compromise of that sort is a selfish act on part of the parents, with material ( as in possesions , assets ) concenrs that devalues and ignores the mental and phisical health of the children involved.

    No amount of cry baby scenes will convince me that “poor adults” that have a teen ager sense of right to sex outside their marriage have indeed the right to look for sex outside the marriage .

    In order to have sex, either work it out with your spouse, or dissolution of marriage has to be implemented.

    Grow up, you got married for a reason, to love your spouse and raise your children. If you do not love your spouse any more, or you have irreconciliable differences, be a man ( or a woman ) and do what is right to assure the well being of the kids you brouight into this world.

  23. Balance.

    I undertand were you come from when you talk about couples that compromise on cheating. That could be a solution that the couple could reach to avoid dissolution of marriage and the expenses and quandaries involved.

    But still that is not the way to confront a situation that demands a real and healthy solution. I say this because unless the couple has no kids, or unless it is an older couple were kids are already out to college and further ahead, securing such an arrangemwent will put the kids living at home in peril, and will subject them to psicological damage.

    I had a girlfriend back in the early 90s, in fact, my very first true love. I really loved that woman, and her father was a writ and evident adulterer. My GF resented this issue very much, and her mother was a very angry woman. Not angry at others, but she seemed to hold a lot of anger to herself, she looked very unhappy.

    I could sense all that, albeit I was not part of the family. My GF’s sister, a younger girl, was an outright boy chaser, getting involved with the wrong kind of guys all the time. Self esteem seemed to be the common denominator in that house, except for the father, who was a blatant pig, boasting to me about his adventures.

    My GF told me her parents were together just to keep the house in order and to preclude separation of assets. They were very unhappy, and it seems it was a selfish decision the adult couple took upon, and the daughters paid dearly.

    My then GF had a nervous brakedown after years of taking Prozac and other stuff for depression. The younger sister went into drug use and ended up marrying some idiot looser that apparently all he does is play video games.

    The father was an incurable dog that sacrificed his whole family for his “right” not to separate assets, for his “right” to enjoy his possesions, for his “right” to have sex w/o communicating with his wife, making it easier to cheat, and making it easier to submit his wife to humilliation, instead of acting like a man.

    There are only 2 ways to deal with this effectively, either talk it over and make it work out, or else, for the sake of your kids, separate, divorse, and be friends to your ex, and raise happy well adjusted kids into adulthood

  24. Yes, Lady Tarrant, it is another point you make.

    Maybe our society has accustomed us too to change, snap to other things and zap to new channels to stay content. We are a society that doesn’t know anymore what real discomfort means. Maybe with wealth we become weak? And with more choices we become spoiled? And, especially in big cities, there is always the chance that you can get an even better deal, and that goes in the world of dating too.
    We have become consumers, and I keep wondering if the amount of divorces and cheating that seems to become overwhelming over the years is not also a sign that consumerism has reached our way of living.
    We do not make an effort anymore with what we have. We become self-centered and think hapiness is fullness.
    Also, with this society we live in, TV and Ipods and video games make us live like blind, dumb and deaf people. No more communication. Even in bars nowadays, the music is so loud you can hardly hear your neighbor.

    Then, as it is said above, there is also the matter of health.

    In fact, cheating or not cheating is a very vast debate. We have to face many facets of ourselves and our society, psychological triggers and health, moral and respect issues, ways of living, and education.

    This is why I think that we cannot judge the people in this discussion, as we know only part of their story, part of their character, and part of their background. And we sometimes have only one side of the story.

  25. By no means am I trying to imply that there are no exceptional cases. I realize that there are always exceptions to the rule. However, our society has become centered around telling ourselves that we are special and different. And we are, but that has led us down a treacherous path. Because see ourselves as special and unique we assume that all of our situations are special and unique, too. Following that line of thinking, we see ourselves and our situations constantly as the exception. We consistently justify our actions and feelings based on being the exception. And of course this is natural for us; we give in to this thinking because it feels a whole lot better than just admitting we screwed up. This leads people into making excuse after excuse and finding justification wherever is convenient, in order to escape facing their faults and weaknesses. When we allow ourselves to continuously make excuses for our shameful behavior we open ourselves to a very dangerous path of self deceit. Mayhap many who cheat feel justified because their situation is exceptional, but where else in their lives will they begin deluding themselves to keep the justification intact, and where have they already? It is a dangerous road one travels when one uses lies and deceit. The high road was never promised to be pleasant or easy, but what’s right is right regardless. Exceptions are few, excuses are plentiful when it comes to living a lie.
    For those FEW who may be trapped in an exceptional situation, I give my sympathy. But most just trample on these few’s ordeals and use them as an example to justify their own unjustifiable transgressions.

  26. James,

    I agree with you, my blood boils too at such a thought. Cheating is not for me. I have a certain sense of loyalty and so do you and some others on this site, which is great to hear.
    I am just pointing at the fact that sometimes, some women do not want to hear anything that will break their comfort. And sometimes, men do the same. That gives only once choice to the man or woman who wants to talk without partner: divorce. And I understand that divorce means too much for some when children are involved. Courage is different for each of us.
    True, as you point out, children know, they feel something is wrong. I would advise Orton to divorce, but keep friendly with his wife. A divorce doesn’t need to be something violent. A lot of diplomaty would be needed. But this way, his wife would keep Orton as her best friend, she wouldn’t get the risk of being hurt by discovering he cheats, and a friendly time-table could be drawn for the custody of the children.
    Of course, this is wishful thinking, and Orton probably knows best what needs to be done. We are after all judging his situation without having all the infos in hand.

  27. I just want to add, had I ever learnt that my dad cheated on my mother, had I learnt about this later in life, I would personaly send my father to a dentist.

    A father that could had disrespected my mother like that, and my sisters, would be a piece of trash that deserved no mercy.

    I can feel my blood boiling at such supposition.

  28. Balance.

    I hear you about the part that relates to custody and the fear a parent could have about losing custody of a child.
    That is a valid point. The issue here is to solve an untenable situation.
    Cheating in order to preclude loss of custody or family unity……. ( if you could call that unity, a cheating spouse, a cheated spouse, and children that know what is going on, because kids live in that house and kids know their parents better than their grandparents know their own children. Grandparents know the children they had when those were children, kids now those same persons, now their own parents, as they are and act in this present time, not what these parents to this kids were back in time, as children to those grandparents, eons, years ago.)…. is not valid nor healthy.

    You are prescribing liquor to calm the patients tooth ache. Liquor will only delay treatment, and allow time for the infection to reach incurable proportions. Eventually the tooth infection will spread through the whole jaw and the problem will become life threatening.

    It is sad to see a family separate and divorse, but the alternative not only affects the adult couple, but creates children that will suffer greatly.

    The daughters will learn from a mother that is the vcitim of cheating that a cheating man is something that happens, that is right, and something that men have a right to do and exert when ever they need it .

    Boys from such an enviroment will grow up to become womanizers, cheaters, men that think that a woman should conform to their own ideals. Men that albeit looking like slobs, like beer belly jugs, they demand their women to look like models.

    The reverse cases apply, a daughter to a cheater mother will become a compulsive cheater and man chaser. A son to a cheated father will become a low self esteem submisive man.

    In all of these cases, all the children learn, first and foremost, that all these sad misconceptions are inevitable. They learn that there is no point in trying to communicate and talk about differences. The lesson is, conform to that cheating spouse, or in the other case, cheat and put your spouse down, because she( he ) deserves it.

    Balance, you are telling us about your great experience with communication, and that is great, that is the way to go. It ended up in an adult and cogent reality evaluation, and you both made the necesary amendments to make sure your relationship would move along successfuly.
    I also believe men and women should be ready to confront the situation, and ready to act had the results of said communication, the results of that attempted meeting of the minds is unsuccessful.
    If there is no understanding, it is better to separate and divorse, that to apeace the fear a parent could have about custody of a child, at the expense of dishonoring, humilliating and misleading a spouse, and moreover, at the expense of the sanctity ( yes Orthon, this part of the equation I believe is untouchable )… of the children of said relationship.
    I would rather have well adjusted and happy children that go to school, and thing well of their parents, growing up healthy emotionally/psicologicaly speaking, children that will have an opportunity to grow with great self esteem, ( and the parent will always be able to see their kids, that is called visitation rights, by law , by statute ) than satisfying a selfish parent that in order to avoid his/her fear from custody issues, will, again, subject his spouse, and his kids, to humilliation and disgrace.
    Before a parent even starts to think about “his” or “her” custody fears, or the child support issues, he/she should think about the health , phisical and mental health of those kids.
    There is no in between, either you work it out with your spouse, or else take responsability for your actions.
    You want to fool around, then separate/divorse. You do not want to leave your family/house/posesions, then quit the nonsense.
    You can not have both sides of the cake. You might think you can, but your kids will prove you wrong sooner than you think.

  29. Hello everyone.

    Look, my husband almost cheated on me once. I wasn’t aware of anything, just some strain, lots of bickering.
    Instead of cheating though, he had the guts to tell me what was wrong, why he almost jumped in. Instead, he talked. We communicated. I was angry at first, and hurt, but because I love him, i looked into myself too, listened to what he had to say, and saw a few things that needed mending. I also tried to learn more about how men think, and what they want. And I told my husband that he was right on certain things, and dead wrong on others, and that he too, needed to work to learn how women think, or what they want.

    So communication is essential, even though it can hurt at first. Now that I know what went wrong between us, where the problem lies, it is easier to work on it. Now, we are a happy couple respectful of each other. But everything could have gone awfully wrong, and it would have hurt deeply, if he had made the other choice.

    But in a way, I can relate to Lisa, when she says that sometimes, the fault lies with the woman. Lisa is only wrong by thinking that men shouldn’t bear their part of responsibility too and saying “poor men”. They too have shortcomings and impatience and cowardice and misunderstanding, and they too can have a belly sometimes 🙂 I repeat, communication is essential. That means, no cheating and lying, or something is destroyed.

    It is unethical, and amoral to lie to a supposedly loved one and I would have divorced, had he gone on that way. But that’s my story.

    However, I don’t want to generalize. There are some cases where denial is too strong, as Orton says.

    It ended up all well for me and my husband because we are who we are. Not everyone has the strength, or the patience, or the honesty, or the compassion, etc to talk, understand, and then work hard. Everyone has his own level of what compassion means, of how far patience can go etc. Everyone has different boundaries or levels of pride, too.

    I know a case very similar to Orton’s. The husband has done everything, talked, communicated in many ways, gone to the psy, done couple therapy, and has tried to seduce his wife again. He has yelled, cried, talked sense, tried to convince. But nothing seems to work. She is in full denial. I think the problem is, she had her kid too late in her life, and now she feels like cuddling with her, raise her, and is totally focused on her. It is even bad for the kid, who thinks now she is the center of the world, and who sleeps with her parents, in between.

    The problem with American law is that the mother almost systematically gets the custody of the child. So what is to happen to this friend of ours, who communicated to no avail?
    A man is a man, not a capon. But that man is also a father who will not get the custody of the child, most probably. So yes, that man is afraid. And it does not make him a coward. He is just afraid to see his child only on week end, and let’s face it, this is unfair. Why should he pay the moral and financial blow of the whole situation when his wife obviously makes no efforts?
    He is cheating on her.

    I can’t say he is right, but I can’t blame him either. And I will not throw the stone as to whom is the most cowardly: the one who does not want to lose the child’s custody, or the one who is in denial? Because I do not know why the wife is in denial, I won’t judge her either. It might all come from her own childhood, and I won’t go there. Lying and cheating is generally not nice, and it hurts, but we should judge on case by case, not generalization.

    As for Lisa, the same goes. She wants to have fun, well it is her life. After all, all these guys who come to her and bestow gifts on her are much more to blame than her. And when there is a demand, there is a market, too…

    Do not compare this to prostitution: there is a whole shady business there, where prostitutes are beaten, raped or drugged. This is a crime, and those who pay for that sort of service should go to jail and pay heavily, because at the beginning there is violence, and at the end, there are those who profit financially from the services of these poor girls.
    As far as I know, this is not Lisa’s case, and Orton seems to have done a lot to talk to his wife, on his side, so let’s not bash them.

    Personally, I wouldn’t accept cheating from my husband, so I am glad he chose to talk instead. But I am also a woman who can take in the truth about myself and make an effort. Not everyone is me, not everyone is my husband.

  30. also-Lady Tarant. you pretty much exactly describe what happened why my boyfriends father cheated-the children have both lost respect and desire for a relationship with him. everyone still convinced that cheating will keep your children in your life?

  31. and why, Orton, can’t you tell her that. I have been in your shoes-my boyfriend can’t live in the same city with me, and that doesn’t meet all my needs. You know what I did about that? Handled it like a mature adult, and told him this. You know what, I get sex and don’t have to lie about it. I’m not denying that you have needs, but I do expect you to handle it like an adult instead of a little boy sneaking around behind his parents back. And yes, for the record, she needs to examine what she wants in the marriage too. I know, it’s scary to realize that you can’t force another human to do what you want and that she deserves the option to decide to walk. but face your fear.

  32. Actually You have no idea what the hell you are talking about.
    I am done trying to explain a complex situation. Why would i crush my wife completely I win i am getting what I need else where she is worthless to me. that is what all of you sanctimonious windbags think is compassionate?

    I have been through all of the machinations of therapy, talking seducing etc.. this works for us.

    My wife is in denial she has denied my needs what ever she wants is the most important and if i am selfish and crush her spirit I am a coward that to me is the cowards way out.

    Should I force her to deeply examine something she prefers not to face for the sake of honesty? To me that is more selfish than my current arrangement.
    I have admitted I have certain base human needs that are not being met in m,y relationship that does not negate all of the positives of the marital relationship.

    In a perfect world I would not be in my situation. I have found I have the ability to be poly-amorous my wife does not want to be or want to face the facts.

    I find my situation allows me to be more grounded a better partner in many ways I am cranky, depressed, and not plesant when I am denied a physical realtionship.
    But i am not just that I am not just a sexual being it is one facet of life.

    I did not consent to a life of celibacy when I got married. I didn’t get the memo that marriage meant drying up and to be sexually faithful is the most important part of life. Love, honor and cherish not dry up and die.
    So kb until you have walked a mile in my moccasins respectfullys shove it where the sun don’t shine.

  33. I’ve read so much of how cheating is for the sake of the children. I’ve read how lying is acceptable because it is for the good of the children. But I am curious as to how those who defending cheating care to explain themselves to their children when their (cheating partner) transgressions come to light. Do you really believe that you can keep your children’s respect when they find out what you’ve done to their other parent? Do you really believe they will side with you when their other parent is devastated and in tears? I should think a child would prefer a parent that they can spend less time with but still respect than one that is there all the time, but cannot be admired. I simply cannot understand how sex and deceit can be more important than your child’s opinion and faith in you if you claim to be deceitful because you love them oh so much.
    In addition, what kind of example are you setting for your children? Is that really what you believe is in their best interest, to be told it’s alright to be lied to? And would you want you daughter or son to be treated as disrespectfully as you are treating your partner? Do you want them to believe that it’s acceptable for them to be treated in such a manner because it was acceptable for you to do it to your partner? Tell me not that you are such a good father/mother when you show children that they should have so little respect for others and themselves. The harm you will cause them when the truth comes out, can’t possibly out weigh the Monday through Thursday dinners bathed in lies.

  34. Orton-if you weren’t a coward, and were convinced that your wife was happy, you’d tell her, she doesn’t want this, you’re going to get it elsewhere and let her know what kind of relationship you think you guys have. but you don’t. You’re lying to keep a relationship that she didn’t consent to. Seems pretty cowardly to me.

  35. Frank right on.
    Life is more subtle than than cheating or having a lover as I prefer to say.

    Honestly the sanctimony and the “ooh if you dont tell every secret or every event in your life to your spouse you are a lying cheating POS is a way to a demented life IMHO.

    I value my wife’ friendship and have mourned in my own way for our lack of sexual intimacy. She seems happy with out it. Okay I cant be happy as an individual giving up that part of my humanity. I also do not want to be a weekend father, with a drive by relationship with my kids. Im not out trolling around for women every weekend. and I am am discreet.
    I have a lover it works for us we are honest about our relationship we love each other too.

    In a perfect world, i guess black and white boundaries work.

    But when some one as self righteous and declaratively pious as James shows up for dinner at my house I find it is a good practice to check the silver when they leave.

    I am by no means a coward James. I pity you for your small mindedness.

  36. Yes Ryan.

    Guys that write and insult so much on screen are chickens.
    Like dogs behind a fence, bark and bark, furiously, let that dog out, and he is sheepish and shy.

    You want to tell the F word to someone, do it in person. I am not surprised, it is the cheaters, aka cowards, that resort to insults on line.

    I know your kind.

  37. Who cares about insults, even though we do not know anybody here, its easy to throw insults, but its just writing, unless you are so sensitive and take it to heart. Most people hate cheaters, it has ruined their lives, their parents lives, and their children’s lives. No good comes from a cheating partner. I agree, that most people who have cheated, don’t even talk to their partner about being unhappy in their relationship. They just lie to their partner, and go out and find some cheap sex on the side. Its a lot easier to do this, than go through a divorce, a separation, or telling the truth that they cheated. How come people cannot be civil, talk to their partners about what is causing a rift in the relationship? Talking is easy. It’s those people, who are afraid, that cannot take confrontation, from their ‘loved’ ones. Just talk, just TALK to your BF/GF/Wife/Husband/Partner. You are with them for a reason, you love them; if you do not love them anymore, break up with them, I know its hard to do, but if you want to be guilt-free, and go out and date other people, and not lie to them too, just BREAK-UP!!!! Own up to your mistakes!!

  38. “a man that “writes” insults is just expresing what a coward he is”…

    Oh fuck you, you condescending prick. I try not to respond to you, because you’re such a retarded windbag, but you’ve been insulting people all over this blog. And you love doing it.

    Hey, I wonder if your attitude to infidelity is the same – is it cowardly when other people do it, but ok when you do it?

  39. So I get it, the way to show how much you crave time with your children is to cheat and misslead your family.

    Go tell your son that because you love him so much, and you want to spend time with him, you decided to have sex with another woman, and the fault is mom’s, because she can not submitt to the sexual desires of his father.

    Go tell your daughter that you decided to have sexs with a woman other than her mother, becausse you care so much to spend time wioth her ( daughter.)

    Go tell your family that you are a poor guy that all he wants to do is keep the family intact.

    Because you have no brains, you can not talk it over with your spouse, you see no reason nor solution out of that communication, and because you are a coward that could not live without his wife and house, you decide to cheat, so you can get away with it, and still keep the house and your wife.

    Yes, it is only a white lie.

    It is not an issue of white lies, it is an issue of “other lifes”. You are attacking and destroying the lifes of your sons and daughters, you are filling their memories and lifes with shame.

    You are hurting your spouse, and all of this just because you are so coward that you could not confront your wife on your problems. You are not man enough to try remedy the situation. You are not man enough to live to the consequences of your actions. You are not man enough to divorse and let your family exit your insecurities with honor. You got to smear everyone in your funky smelling soap opera.

    Hope when your kid grows up, he punches you and breaks your teeth , because one thing is for sure, you harvest tomorrow what you sow today.

  40. Just my humble guesses — Maybe I’m right / Maybe I’m worng, but here’s what I am picking up on:

    Maybe James values absolute honesty above almost all other considerations in life (and hopefully he has a partner who feels the same). More power to him, that’s great!

    Maybe Orton values some other things like time with his children and his version of a satisfying sex life above absolute honesty.

    Most people have told little white lies. Many people might think this is more than a little white lie, but who are we to judge without walking a mile in Orton’s shoes first? Maybe his wife doesn’t even care or want to know what he is doing or is in denial about it & wants it to stay that way? Maybe she wants Orton to stay for the kids, already has a feeling he has something else going, but doesn’t want to have it described outloud straight to her face? Maybe it’s ok as long as he keeps it discreet & doesn’t embarass her by getting caught in public & having the neighbors know and all that. Basically maybe she doesn’t want total brutal honesty either — there are people who are that way — it is true — I have known some (both sides of the couple). Maybe she has her own thing going too (or not or has what she wants, which may have nothing to do with sex). Without actually being there it is very hard to tell for sure, and Orton is there, and we are not.

    In any case, speaking everything outloud isn’t the only form of communication and not every marriage or even open marriage has a checklist, and not everyone would want to chek the same things on their respective checklists if they even existed (maybe money and peace trumps wild sex for her anyway) — people come to agreements in many different ways.

  41. Orton.

    Leaving your insults aside, ( I believe people should do that in person, a man that “writes” insults is just expresing what a coward he is, tell that to a man in person )… I do not see any ” sanctimonious ” issue in my replies.

    I do not care if the couple is together through religious marriage, common law or civl law, the issue is respect and honesty.

    You want to have other women?, you want to have many women? you want to have multiple partners ? ( and men if you are a woman, whichever the side of the story applies to you ) … then if you are in a relationship, then terminate it, break up with that person before you hurt her / him .

    If you have problems in that relationship, and you do not want to break up, to divorse, to separate, then talk with that person, instead of acting like a coward, and finding another woman / man, that will only help you avoid confronting your relationship problems, and provide you with an affair with another person, while hurting your current official partner.

    It is very easy for a coward ( male or female this is a 2 lane avenue ) to avoide reality and go find a mistress or a lover. Is that what a real man does?? or a real woman does? Are you suggesting you deserve a medal for being a cheater?
    Cheating means going out with one woman under false pretenses while engaged in a relationship with another. If that is what you preach, hope your partner shares your views, that is exactly what you deserve, a cheating partner.

    You know what makes me puke ? Coward people like you, that have cowardice written all over your face, a man that will not confront his partner in order to improve the relationship, a man that will neither terminate the relationship because he is “scared “. a man that will find another woman and 90% of the time even lie to that other woman telling her that he is not married.

    Stop trying to dress hinesty and assertiveness in a relationship ( which would be marital/couple communication and respect of each other ) with religious, sanctimonious excuses.

    You smell coward, your own words tell a tale of hidding, or a mediocre lifestyle.

  42. James,
    Reading you makes me want to puke you are a pious sanctimonious ass. Sort of in the vein of Jimmy Swaggart or one of the congressional boy bumpers who is caught with a nose full of crank and a mouthful of cock.

    Marriages have all kinds of flaws, mine is a wife who has lost all apparent interest in sex. the todlers have long since grown up. will I leave her for hot monkey sex as Lisa says probably not.

    I am in need of sex it makes me feel good human and connceted.
    divorcing over sex and throwing in the towel on my children to live apart is not my idea of fatherhood. Had my wife been honest and said hey I hate sex and after the kids are born you can pound sand.
    Well maybe we wouldn’t have gotten married. but we did.

    If I were to go without for years it makes me depressed angry and not a nice person to be around. Cheating okay what ever you want to call it but really a judgmental ass like James hasn’t lived a day in my shoes. I have been to counseling blah blah.

    No means no if she wants to jump the boyscout leader fine. but everything else seems to work. I have made peace with my situation.
    Get off your high horses not everyone lives like you do.

  43. Um… what the hell does being fat have to do with it? It’s only ‘fat’ people with kids that get cheated on. I find it a little strange that Lisa is so obsessed with this ‘weight’ issue…

    I’ve never been married or cheated on, but my father did cheat on my mother (gasp… so perhaps I’m biased?). He kept it from her and it was her finding out that lead to the vindictive divorce mentioned above. I was young at the time so OF COURSE it was hard, but would I rather have had my mom not know and been played for a fool? Of course, not. I love her too much for that and the fact that post-divorce she raised me on my own (and we did not go into poverty. we kept our house, and yes, a lot of this was because my father did still cared for me and my well-being too). I feel like I am a better person because I was raised by a strong independent woman who didn’t take shit from her husband. When I was 8 I might have cried and cried about the divorce but now at 21, I’ve learned from it. Also, only 2 of my friends growing up were from families that were NOT divorced. It is not as psychologically damaging as people make it out to be and in fact, people can learn from it. I know that I’m not going to just jump into a marriage.

    Anyway, it might be easier to relate to or see Lisa and Lacey’s point of view if it didn’t come off as arrogant. Ever heard of being sexy by being subtle (and classy) as opposed to thinking you’re hot shit? Also, it’s appalling that you think you’re doing the family/kids a FAVOR by sleeping with their fathers. Absolutely disgusting. When the truth comes out (and it always does), you’re the home-wrecker if anything.

  44. ^Yes, or the Other Woman gets pregnant by the cheating husband, etc. It happens sooner or later, the fantasy ends, and someone, or multiple people in the situation get an STD, shot, stabbed, you name it. People can be really aggressive once they find a cheating spouse. We all know what people are capable of.

  45. Mary,
    Thank you, but I don’t need apologies nor sympathy. Although doing the right thing was incredibly difficult at the time, it was in the end well worth the trauma and set backs.
    I also understand your aggravation. I spent three years alone because the only men who expressed and interest in me were married.

    As far as what Frank had to say, I can agree with pieces of it. Although, I do believe it’s naïve to think that someone who is being cheated on would have no propensity towards violence. Furthermore, one shouldn’t think that just because they feel fine about being the other woman/man that the spouse of the cheating party is fine with cheating. In fact, I should think that if both parties in a relationship are fine with each other having multiple partners then they would be in an open relationship. The act of sex with someone who isn’t your committed partner isn’t in and of itself cheating (again, open relationships have this), it’s the deception and lack of openness that is the transgression.
    I may be ‘old fashioned’ in my thinking—though I’ll not change for concern of a stereotype—but I firmly believe that if one is doing something that they feel they need to lie to their partner about, then it’s probably not the right thing to do. And once again people seem to neglect that this is also a HEALTH ISSUE that strips the victim of their rights to choose what types of risks they wish to allow themselves to be exposed to. Notably, I must admit that I put the brunt of the weight of the betrayal more on the cheating party than the other woman/man. One cannot trust the world, but they should be able to trust their partner, since their partner is the one who made the promises.
    If people feel so justified for their cheating, then why do they feel the need to hide it? And if one claims that they need to hide it because their partner doesn’t feel the same about it as they do, well, then maybe they need a new partner that is more compatible with their line of thinking. My point is this: I believe cheating is wrong because deception and betrayal of trust is wrong.
    Finally, a reality check: I’ve known one woman who was stabbed to death for being involved in such a nasty triangle and the man (the cheating spouse) now sits in jail for having not stepping in nor calling the police to stop the fight. I’ve also known another woman who was given herpes by her cheating husband. Neither story is romantic or even pleasant.

  46. I didn’t mean my comment to be a personal attack on Tarrant and my commentary about my personal feelings towards men who hit on me (or try to date) who are married are just an expression of the aggravation it has caused me. I did not hit anyone, although, I did become quite good at slapping and sometimes cruel to men who would try with me. I guess I should be relieved that there is a site for married men to go trolling for affairs in one sense, but in another (in a personal-relationship sense), obviously, it bothers me. Can anyone else understand how after (barrages over the years)50+ married men try for sex, romance, etc. it can aggravate a person to anger when they are seeking a monogomous relationship(and are open and honest about that?)? It’s a real pain to repeatedly spurn the (very wrong and misplaced) advances; such is the dating scene (and I guess despite my forward thinking in some ways, I’m old-fashioned in that sense), discerning the wheat from the chaff…Maybe I didn’t take enough dating breaks to blow off the aggravation steam because it must still show!
    P.S: Tarrant, I apologize things were so harsh on you for doing the right thing. In my own way, I can relate.

  47. I guess that this is a very touchy topic with many raw emotions, but people seem to be getting awfully personal in attacking one another over this one. Many of the comments are what is called “ad hominem” i.e. attacking the person not the matter being debated. Just because someone does not like Lisa’s or Elizabeth’s or Lacey’s or James’ attitude does not prove or disprove whether adultery is good or bad (or indifferent).

    We might start by calling attention to the fact that adultery has been going on throughout recorded human history, and the world has not ceased to turn yet because of it. As far as we know it has not saved the fate of our planet yet either, and many other things that might be considered rather naughty have been going on since the dawn of recorded time as well – such as stealing, fighting, etc, so the fact that adultery has existed since time immemorial is not in and of itself a valid defense of it – more just an exhibit of how tough it might be to eliminate adultery completely if one really wanted to do so, and it seems less dangerous and harmful to the general population (those not directly involved in said love triangle) than those other issues.

    Since adultery is likely terribly difficult to irradiate, I would like to propose to live and let live: If one does not support adultery, then that person need not commit adultery or help someone else to commit it (meaning in this case the “biblical sense” of help to commit…) or even marry someone who is pro-adultery. On the other hand, if a person does happen to like adultery, then maybe they should be able to commit it without fear of violence or even being drug into court over the matter, as our courts are already overburdened with the people who are still stealing, fighting, etc since time immemorial – And I think that this is generally becoming the case with no fault divorce laws and such (there seem not to be so many private detectives following straying spouses around snapping pictures for divorce cases anymore these days). On the other hand, there are many benighted countries in the world where especially women might be killed for an offense such as adultery (which makes the comments of those of you calling for violent revenge terribly disturbing at least to me).

    So in short: those who like cheating should feal safe to cheat, and those who don’t like cheating should not bo obliged cheat (and they probably shouldn’t even marry people who like to cheat either, as that is likely to lead to hurt feelings later too). But let’s not drag the United States into the dark ages over this issue (there other countries that one could move to if they really want to witness vigilante justice over sexual mores).

  48. See, I don’t understand why it is that Lisa can’t seem to stick to single men. See… She talks about how the single men “always fall in love with her”, but she obviously has little respect for other people, so why does she care if she hurts them by leaving them? Or maybe it’s just women she doesn’t respect?

    I don’t know. I just see it as utter selfishness on either of their parts. Both Lisa and Lacey keep bringing up these “fat slob women”… but I’ve been cheated on, I wear a size six and I always have. I have always been available sexually and open to new things. He fully admitted that I did nothing wrong and noting to deserve being cheated on. So tell me, what exactly did that woman have in justification? She knowingly hurt me (She was an acquaintence) and was out for her own selfish gain.

    That’s what it comes down to. Women and men who cheat, or become “The Other [Wo]Man” are serving entirely themselves and care for no one else. And some people believe that they don’t have to. Which is rather unfortunate for the state of the world as a whole, not just in cheating.

    Oh – and I would like to reiterate that no, not everyone does it or thinks about it. That’s just wishful thinking.

  49. Mary,
    My only point was that Lisa’s story of a lack of marital bliss does not give her an excuse nor even really explains why she plays the games she does with married men. It’s like someone telling me that since they were beaten in a relationship, it’s okay if they help someone else beat another undeserving partner.– Not that I haven’t run across that before, but only concerning persons who have endured severe psychological trauma and are in dire need of immediate treatment. Lisa, however, doesn’t seem to be one those unfortunate persons….but, I’m not her psychologist, so who knows.

  50. Lady Tarrant-did you think I was bringing you a sob story or defending them because I felt sorry for them? Not at all. I was just trying to understand their reasoning. Call me crazy for that, I guess. You don’t sound harsh. Also call me crazy for actually believing in the vows more than some of the actual parties involved/who took those vows (not you, of course). Disgust is not compassion, Lady! Being a total outsider to marraige and affairs, I just have to try and understand with my experiences and own judgement. If there weren’t so many men willing to stray, I’d be a much happier woman in the dating world and a much more content woman in a relationship, looking towards a future with a man!

  51. Oh, whatever.
    I’m a divorced woman as well. At the end of my marriage my ex and I didn’t have sex at all. Was it because I was a fat, unattractive, lazy slob? At a size 2, I should think not. No, I didn’t want intimacy with my then husband, because he was someone I couldn’t respect, no longer felt attracted to, and had inflicted a lot of emotional wounds through being fairly mean spirited because he couldn’t get his way all of the time. I was attracted to other men. I was even tempted on one occasion. It was an incredibly difficult time and I craved emotional and physical intimacy, too. BUT, though I didn’t stay faithful to my husband, I DID stay faithful to my marriage and never cheated. I also got a divorce, even though it threw me into poverty, took away my ability to go to school for years, and damaged many areas of my life.

    Thus, I don’t care for flimsy sob stories. I don’t feel moved, and I still don’t understand the convoluted logic behind Lisa and Lacey’s stand.

    I don’t mean to sound harsh. On a purely intellectual level, I am genuinely interested in being able to understand their (Lisa and Lacey) point of view, even if I’m not apt to agree with them.

  52. After thinking about this a bit more I don’t think you are right, Lady Tarrant-It’s not about boredom. Do you sense the passion in Lisa’s responses?? It almost sounds like she feels justified in doing what she has with married men, considering her past. I understand in that sense (although not with married men) what she is doing. And, like it or not, I don’t really care about “the children”; it always seems like the men who don’t get divorced and have affairs end up keeping their financial system intact better to support kids and have that extra to spend on themselves or another. It’s the integrity issue that bothers me, I guess. Beyond the “marraige/married man” factor, as I said, I can somewhat understand Lisa’s stance. As a means of getting what she wants (maybe even a strange sense of justice) she is quite proud of herself. That is my take. Do I feel Holier Than Thou?? No. Do I sound Holier Than Thou for my opinion and disgust?? I hope not because despite this morality issue, I’m the last person on Earth to be religious!

  53. Oh my, Lisa and Lacey, I hardly know where to start. I think your mentality is sad, but that is just my opinion. In truth, I simply cannot understand you. Lisa, you fleshed out your ethical stand point quite well, so I’ll primarily focus on you.
    You, Lisa, give the impression that you view yourself as a forward thinking, rational, strong, independent woman. And that is where my confusion lies. I understand that sometimes women find themselves in a bad situation with a married man. I understand that there are many naïve and conflicted women who really believe that the man will indeed leave his wife or that somehow this really is the best she (the other woman) can get in life. However, these women do tend to show at least some remorse, some indication that they have a conscious. You, Lisa, do not. You seem to believe that there is nothing wrong with what you are doing. You don’t even seem to care if the children suffer because the husband’s spending money on you and not them, because after all ‘he earned it, he can spend it how ever he chooses’—which is also confusing. How can defend your lover’s actions with ‘he doesn’t want to hurt his children’ and then say that it’s acceptable for his children to be harmed (in a financial sense) as long as it’s to your benefit? Seems a bit contradictory to me, but I digress. Back to the lack of conscious: if you really don’t believe that what you’re doing is wrong, then why are trying to find someone to blame? Why even mention the concept of fault if there is no wrong being done? And if you’re such the strong, forward thinking, independent woman that you seem to like to present, then why do you refuse to take responsibility for your own actions? Finally, if you don’t care about the potential harm that could be caused by your actions, the potential devastation of a family or another woman’s sense of self worth, then why even bother with the married men in the first place, when you can be safely wined and dined by single men and just leave a trail of broken hearts, instead of broken homes, in your wake?
    I can only think that perhaps it’s not so much a fear of commitment (many have that fear and don’t get involved in affairs), but perhaps you just like the thrill, the drama of having that taboo, secrete affair. Mayhap, you don’t care so much about the commitment issue, but instead care about the feelings of excitement that the possibility of getting caught brings into your life. Perhaps you really are just that bored.

  54. Wow, Lisa…I’m almost speechless! I don’t think most of the people posting here realize how many married men out there hit on single women. I’ve spent years (blocks of years in my adulthood)dating (not committed to anyone) and its a real eye-opener to realize how many are seeking a little “something-something” on the side. It’s been my experience that its an ever-present part of the dating and singles world to encounter married men seeking more. And Lisa is right, most want to romance the new woman, which is a far cry better than what most single men will offer but I could never get over the little nagging fact that they are a liar and they were making me a dishonest (and SECONDARY)woman by their actions. It outraged me! TIME AND TIME AGAIN, married men would try to put me in what I considered an AWKWARD situation of little respect and it would get to the point I had violent thoughts towards them, myself. (and no, I did not have affairs with them…I just encountered the same situation over and over with various married men, I just want to start punching guys for their audacity! But that wouldn’t be very lady-like, would it??)
    I don’t understand how it doesn’t outrage you, too, Lisa. I suppose, you’ve bought into the whole deal-being rewarded time and again for your affairs, so it all seems just dandy to you. Don’t you feel any shame or sadness? You don’t have a real relationship with a man. It’s sad. I mean, both the wife and you have all the trinkets of the material world being offered and neither one of you is really getting the “gold” for your efforts. ONly the man is getting his cake and eating it too. Well, that is just my take on all this. Never being married gives me a different view on things, maybe?? And never taking on a married man for an affair(because of my disgust) makes it difficult to relate to Lisa.

  55. Seems like you are having your little revenge against the system.

    Have you considered professional help? I think you would benefit from it, otherwise your war against an imaginary system will drive you into self destruction.

  56. Oh no darlin’—I’ve done the married with kids thing. Left the fat slob of a husband after doing everything including professional counseling to see if he would quit swearing, quit being an absolute slob, or do anything worthwhile…..and, to be honest, the nice guy with whom I had an affair during that marriage saved my life and my sanity. I remarried, he cheated—fine with me, I didn’t want his sorry dick but was happy to stay married until I untangled the financial mess he left me in, and now—well, no kids at home, why not?

    Your ethics and morals don’t match mine. Fine. I don’t ask you to live your life my way…..and I have to say, I think you protest overmuch. Read through the comments in the rest of this website—telling a woman (or a man) that he looks like a fat slob is just not acceptable. We are supposed to love them no matter what, even if the dick don’t work, even if they are so fat you can’t find the tw*t in the thigh rolls……and the fat people happily blame it all on genetics. Bull.

    And no, I don’t feel guilty about spending the families money. He earns it, he gets to spend it. She wants a say, go get a job and then she can spend her own money…..

    As to crime of passion: ummmmm, yeah. They better be a damn sight better shot than me. More likely than not too slow to get out of their own way.

  57. There is a hidden lesson behind Lisa and Lacey’s philosophy:

    Cheat, and if you are a single woman, go out with married men ( men, learn from this philosophy, single men should date married women as well.)

    Never fall in love with them.
    Pray they never divorse, because that would mean having to “deal” with that person all the time.
    Just enjoy the spiffy restaraunts, gifts and flowers these unhappy people will present to you.
    Since nobody is gotten caught, we would be taking care of their families, because in reality we would be helping that family stay together. You girls are doing something that is actually good and needed in society.
    Do not worry about guilt feelings, using the family and specially the kids money on spiffy restaurants , gifts and flowers because it is all the fault of the spouse.
    The cheater part is a poor soul that needs confort, while you need some money, some presents and spiffy dinning provided at the expense of a family, a wife, and some kid’s toys and school items that they can do without.
    The best thing you should do girls, both of you, is buy good life insurance policies.
    The only good outcome from this despicable philosophy is that you will perish victim to a crime of passion. Perhaps your relatives ( since you are single ) will use that money to go to college and get an education, and in the process get some good ethics and morals .

  58. Lacey-

    What a wonderful philosophy you and Lisa seem to share. Stay classy. Incidentally, your observation that “everybody does it or has thought about it” is demonstrably wrong. Wishful thinking on your part, maybe, but definitely not supported by reality. I’ve noted before and I’ll reiterate it here that the whole topic comes down to a matter of respect. Both for one’s partner and for oneself. I’ve never cheated nor been tempted to on the few occasions where the opportunity has arisen. Not because of moral considerations but because I don’t want to be the sort of dishonest douche-nozzle that cheats and lies.

  59. No Lacey, its the husbands fault. He got his wife pregnant. He wanted kids, and he doesn’t want to leave his kids. He understood what would happen if his wife has kids. Not all women stay fat after kids, even though this is American, home of the Biggy size. Many women who balloon into a 200+ pound whale and stay that way because of kids, I agree, would turn off the intimacy with the husband. But instead of the husband helping his wife get back to her pre baby weight, and being sensitive to the fact its hard without lots of exercise and diet, AND support from the husband; He is foolishly going out and finding people, like you and Lisa.

    I have a question for you, Lacy, and for Lisa: Would you keep dating married men all your life? Never have kids yourselves? Never find a single man, have a NORMAL relationship with him, and marry him? Are you afraid of commitment? Are you ok with ‘sharing’ him with his wife and kids, and knowing he will never leave his wife for you?

  60. Just read Lisa’s posts. You go Girl! We are NOT the problem. The wives are. They let themselves go after they have kids. No man wants to mount an oompa loompa. My F*ck Buddy can’t even get it up for his wife anymore. She is that disgusting. I fulfill a basic need for him. He won’t leave her for me. They have two kids and he will never leave his kids. But she longer cares about her appearance, her attitude has changed, and the man needs some companionship. Plain and simple.

  61. Nobody gets hurt if the spouses never find out. Think about it. It’s common freaking sense. And yeah, everybody does it or has thought about it.

  62. Lisa, are you a gold digger? Or a prostitute? Because, these married men are taking you out to fancy restaurants, and buying you things, right? Well, that’s a great way to take money from the straying husbands kids and his wife. Like I said in other posts, it just takes one wife to find out, and beat you to a pulp, leaving you confined to a wheelchair, and a divorce.

    I really like Elizabeth’s and James’s posts. These are people who act like real civil adults. They are the role models here.

    Lisa, you give women a bad name doing what you do.

  63. Please tell me which woman is going to act “halfway civilized” with a husband who cheats on her and never even tells her what’s wrong. Because I’m pretty sure they are way more of a myth than those kids who make it through life with divorced parents just fine. Like, you know… me… or all but one of the friends I have who grew up in that situation. Yeah. Forgot we weren’t real people.

  64. kids, pensions, community property…..why should half a couple give up their standard of living, let alone take it out on the kids? It is a happy modern myth that divorce is good for kids….their standard of living drops, their access to both parents drops….as long as the parents cab act halfway civilized, better that they stay together.

  65. Lisa-he’s free to persue a relationship with a different person, that’s where he is. If it’s truly so bad that he needs you, why is divorce the wrong thing to do?

  66. And where is the poor man if he says–look, sweetie, I want to free up some time for you to exercise, you are gaining weight and it turns me off—and she runs screaming that it is her right to be fat and she can’t help it?

  67. I blame the wife because she participates. I don’t want to have sex with a 200+ lb slob. Why should he? And yes, I know, fat is the in thing, with millions of excuses for someone who wants to stuff everything possible in his/her mouth and never move. Nonetheless, people—and for that matter, the women who can’t find their spouse’s dick under the potgut—it isn’t just men—have to take responsibility for how their choices affect others.

  68. Lisa… Divorce is not always, or even most often, hell for children. I am a child of divorce – and I’m perfectly fine. I know many more children who were hurt by their parents remaining in a strained and broken marriage than kids who were damaged because their parents seperated like adults. Divorce is hell on children when the divorce is particularly painful, drawn out, and vindicitive. You know, kind of like the divorces that happen when there is cheating and betrayal involved.

    I truly see nothing wrong with adults who choose not to marry, not to commit, not to have children. I do however, see something wrong with women and men who have no respect for other people. And I fully believe that if you can betray another woman like that, then you don’t have respect for others. It’s not about possessions or stealing – it’s about the fact that you know how deeply the wife would be hurt if she found out and you don’t give a damn. That’s my problem with those choices.

    Oh. And what the HECK are you doing sitting there blaming a wife for her husband’s choices? Sure, there are women who let themselves get to a situation where her man might be tempted, but it’s HIS fault if he chooses not to talk to her about his issues in their relationship, HIS fault if he cheats. I agree that every relationship that dissolves has two contributers to the problem, but his big contribution was the cheating. Way to stand up for other women… Not only do you knowingly contribute to the betrayal of other women, you BLAME them. Awesome.

  69. Um… Johnny, no that is most definitely NOT what I tell my guy… First of all, the temptation to cheat – for me anyway – has happened exactly ONCE in my [current] relationship and it was not a specific guy that tempted me, just a situation.

    And if a specific guy tempted me, I would not say “Oh honey, I really want to screw this guy”. I would tell him I have a bit of a crush and we’d talk about it. And he does the same thing. It works for us… Considering we’ve been together for years. You and your girl have something different that works for you. And it’s cool that you have your own thing. I merely explained what works for me, and why for ME and my guy, discretion is not okay. I was defending myself against your statement that all of us women who demand honesty are manipulative. I’m not manipulating anyone, as this was something we discussed before actually getting exclusively involved. Our honesty is not manipulating. It’s what we do to deal with the reality that we both are sometimes tempted, but neither of us could handle an open relationship (yes, my guy has told me he would never want that either).

    Please don’t sit there passing judgements on me just because I view cheating and “discretion” differently than you do.

  70. Lisa.

    You are not that funny, but it is interesting to read your replies.
    I am not a religious person, I was born catholic, but I never go to mass nor participate in what I call “Hypocrecy”

    I do not believe in families remaining intact upon conflict. I do not believe people shoule even get married, unless there is a commitment, and a collective sense of responsability about what that marriage entails and what it means.

    I do believe that people that know they can not hold a life or marriage should never get married. I already said so, and I even praised you on that.

    What I advocate is for straighforwardness, for honesty and for courage. When a married couple has issues, instead of running out the door making silly excuses, in order to go find a lover, that couple, or the party to said couple that believes it is suffering unnecesarily, should establish communication, and try to elicit information from the other party, and arrive to a solution.

    If said solution is unatainable, then, there is what is known as “irrecontiliable differences” that renders said marriage terminated. Once terminated, the parties are free to engage in sex with as many partners as they wish.

    Your theory about my world view has been shown to be wrong in my previous posts, but I am reminding you it is wrong, perhaps you did not read my posts as dilligently as you should.

    I reiterate, your decision not to get married based on your own preferences is meritorious, but what is not meritorious is your decision to go after married men. Going after married men puts in evidence your own issues.

    This leads me to take back my previous congratulatory words about your decision not to get married. I can see it is not a meritorious decision based on an altruistic asessment of your values, it seems it is a selfish and wanton decision to remain single, so you can cover up for your phobia of commitment, and your desire to benefit from relating to married men, men whom are precluded from demanding a relationship and commitment from you, men whom you can exploit for financial gain, without ever having to face your own commitment phobia, and your lack of values.

  71. James—you are funny, you really are. Thank you for the insightful, if somewhat poorly spelled and referenced, analysis there. However, you seem to have a major error—in your worldview, which I would suspect is heteronormative christian of one ilk or another—commitment, marriage, and the subsequent production of children is the desired end result. It isn’t in mine. I far prefer to fill a need, one that lets the families stay intact–divorce is hell on children, did you not know?—and mostly allows the wives to retain their own happy bookclubs, playgroups and standards of living.

  72. It is written all over your forehead Lisa.

    Lisa writes:

    ” I don’t want a full-time anything.”

    Lisa writes:

    ” Can find single men, have found single men—they always fall in love with me. Bleah. Then they want all my time. Bleah.”

    It is evident that you have a problem with intimacy, a problem with commitments, a problem with self esteem.

    Going after married men assures the man can not pursue a commited relationship with you. That helps you cover up for your commitment phobia.

    You do not want a full time anything, because you have a phobia with commitments. That is ok, you nhave a right to do and manage as you please. It is better to remain single and to full around wioth as many men as you want than getting married and cheating. You are fine .

    The problem comes when you select married men to fulfill your psicological shortcomings. You indeed go after married men, because you screen out the single men, for reasons that you already mentioned, commitment that the single men will seek.

    So married men take care of all your needs, the commitment phobia and the issue of facing your phobia disorder.

    You have the right not to enter a commited relationship, that is fair, and that is the best avenue for people like you, not to enter into relationships knowing you can not keep up with the commitment. I applaud you for that.

    But the good act you do on one hand ( which cheating spouses do not implement, they enter a relationship, w/o a commitment to defend that relationship.)…you destroy with the other hand. It is even worse, because you screen single men which you fear for the commitment proposition they will bring into your life, with married man, men that have children, have a wife, men that are doing something wrong, men you are using as a gold digger for , as you said:

    Lisa writes:

    ” Flowers, wine, spiffy restaurants…..”

    in exchange for sex, like a prostitute, because you have no other intention but to benefit financially from that shady relationship. You want no commitment, like you already said:

    Lisa writes:

    ” I don’t hide it, don’t pretend that someday he will leave her and marry me—if he left her, I’d leave him. I don’t want a full-time anything.”

    The more you write these childish justifications for your acts, the more you put in evidence your phobias, your shortcomings and your clear intent to benefit financially, which, in my dictionary, sex for money equals prostitution.

    Kind of interesting to read your justifications, you really need professional help.

  73. Can find single men, have found single men—they always fall in love with me. Bleah. Then they want all my time. Bleah.

    Please remember—he ain’t cheating on ME. Flowers, wine, spiffy restaurants…..ladies, if you’d a treated the man right, he would still be with you. He isn’t. If you don’t want him to cheat, spruce up your act…..lose a little weight, get some spiffy lingerie, quit bitching about fixing up the house……..I’ve seen more women want a daddy-figure and then wonder why the sex goes. Yep.

  74. ^So Lisa, you cannot find single men? You just like to accept a cheating husband? I guess you have no self value, or you have bad self esteem. Sorry about that. Must feel empty inside.

  75. No, the guys I sleep with don’t tell me they are single…..besides, how stupid do you think I am? You can tell…..

    The men I sleep with find me. I don’t go around grabbing innocently married men, enticing them into my home with promises of hot monkey sex. They have already made the decision to find something else. I’m it. At least some of the time. I don’t hide it, don’t pretend that someday he will leave her and marry me—if he left her, I’d leave him. I don’t want a full-time anything.

    So. I’m not taking the first thing available. I respect my lovers privacy, requiring in turn that they respect mine. I’m not stealing your men—whyinhell is it, exactly, that if a guy is straying, the woman involved is “stealing” him? He isn’t a car. He isn’t a possession—but I am willing to bet he is in my bed at least partly because someone thinks he is. A truly committed man doesn’t cheat…..but for the rest of them………

  76. Most of the time women ( and men that do same ) that like to go after married parties are people that can not get the attention of sigle people. These women and men can only enter into relationships with desperate coward people that are trying to cheat on their spouses.

    Most cheaters lie to the new partner, telling them that they are single. Only a desperate single woman or man would follow a married party into a relationship of shame, guilt and secrecy. These desperate persons are intractable ones that can not enter a relationship with a single person, because of their fear to commit. The married lover is a person that can not put their insecurity on the table nor put their lives at risk, because of the inherent condition the married cheater finds himself / herself in.

    So a coward that cheats, …( with all the delusions and childish excuses about cheating as being honest, and effective way to keep a relationship with a significant other working….only a chimp’s brain would concoct such garbage.)….and a coward that fears commitment ( coward because instead of dealing with this comittment issue she / he has, she messes with the spouse of an unsuspecting other, and his / her kids.)… get together.

    Both have delusions about their situation. All the effort that could be used in dealing with their particular issues ( the coward that fears commitment, and the coward that fears facing the marital problems at hand )… all that effort is used in fantasies and hallusinations about how good they are, because one is “saving” a marriage and showing how much he loves his / her kids through cheating, while the accomplice fantasizes about how good it is to establish a relationship with a person that is not free to demand comitment, a person that is so desperate into satiating his / her sexual urges the cowardly way that he / she will take the first thing that is available, no matter how mediocre or nasty it is.

    It is amazing, but fear and cowardice are such negative forces that men and women that live by this concepts use all the remaining neurons in their fast drying brains to get themselves in deep waters.

    Your enemy is not your spouse, your sexual boredom, your fantasies about sex with other people, your enemy is that cowardice that compelles you to act in negative manners, using all your remaining abilities to conceal those acts, with leggerdemain and adroitness that show once again, how fearfull and coward you are.

  77. Lisa seems like the small percentage of the population that needs to scream out “I like to make married men cheat!!, And since I know its wrong, I need to speak out so righteously I don’t feel guilty!!”

    Well, Lisa, and Johnny, no one here, can tell you what to do (Orton too for that manner).

    But, the majority of the people here, and in the world, really hate people who cheat, and you never know what they are capable of.

    I would hate to read in a newspaper, that some wife caught her husband (or husband catches the wife cheating) and takes actions into their own hands, and gun them down, slit the cheater’s throats, or cut off their genitals, etc. Sorry, but there are people who would do such a thing if they caught their husband/bf/wife/gf cheating, and seek out the other person cheating with them.

    Lisa, I hope you know self defense, you just might meet some angry wife who catches you with her husband, and you’ll end up in a wheel chair. Johnny-since you told your current gf that you will cheat someday (and her too for that matter) why don’t you two have an open relationship? Or become swingers? Or, just never have a family and get married? That will save a lot of women from making a mistake with you who think they are in a committed relationship with you.

    🙂

  78. Oh good of you, Elizabeth – you don’t actually cheat, you just tell your man there’s some guy you’d rather be fucking right now than him. Then just let that fester in the ol’ imagination for a little while.

    See, that’s exactly what I’m talking about. Indiscreet, and bad-mannered. Keep it to yourself.

  79. Lisa.

    That is very sad, yiou need professional help. You find pride in being a second class person, you enjoy meddling into the lives of families, you enjoy acting like scum.

    I hope you get help, before you hurt someone, before you get hurt.

  80. Lisa – Yeah – Everyone’s happy. Except, you know, the WIVES. See… I’m not one of those “Blame the woman” types, but if you KNOW that a man is married or in an exclusive relationship… wow. That’s just low.

    That country song said it best: “Well I’m not one to judge someone that I ain’t never met, but layin your hand on a married man is about as low as a gal can get.”

    There are plenty of guys out there who aren’t looking for commitment that aren’t, well, committed. So going after those who are is just plain wrong in my honest opinion. Maybe I am “holier than thou” about it, but I have been in situations where a married or taken man I have had a thing for has wanted me too… but never have I acted on that crush. Because it’s wrong. It’s lying and stealing, and it’s cheating, even if you’re not the one with a significant other.

  81. Ummm….I am a single woman who sleeps with, talks to and plays with mostly married men. Why? Why not? I don’t want a lifetime relationship, I see no problem with being intimate with someone regardless of their marital status, and in general, it’s fun!

    Hate to say it, but I get the best of it. Most of the men say that there just is something missing…..and as someone who has been married, who did all I could to recreate the original intimacy of our marriage, and eventually gave up…I agree. Between community property laws and custody fights, some men just don’t want to leave. As long as I’m here, everybody is happy.

  82. I don’t tell my guy every time I am attracted to another. But I do tell him if I am tempted to cheat for some reason. That’s where I believe discretion ends. I don’t want to hear everytime my guy sees a hot girl (though, sometimes I do!), and he doesn’t want to listen to me rave about that guy I saw at work. But if there is a problem, or a potential problem, we discuss it, in order to avoid said problem. We have discussed open relationships, but we both know ourselves well enough that neither of us would be able to handle that without hiding it… and that’s not the point of openness.

  83. no, Johnny, if discretion is truly necessary-as in they would be really hurt if they found out-you’re lying and not in an open relationship. end of story. Also, let’s not forget health care-it does matter there if your partner is monogamous or not. Neither is always right or wrong, but you have to make that decision knowingly. Truth is important, and doesn’t always cause drama. I think Anthony said it all-if you can’t sit down and realize what your partner is actually doing, you aren’t okay with it. Discretion is a weapon that people use to get relationships that their partners haven’t consented to.

  84. *happy member of an open relationship.

    discretion is unnecessary, if you can be that open minded about your relationship just make the leap already. Because if you can’t just sit down and actually recognize what your partner is actually doing, you’re not really okay with it and those evil little emotions will slip in and things will get really dramatic and ridiculous quickly.

    closed relationship people: either refuse to commit forever to one. or get creative with the one you’ve got.

    possible open relationships: talk about how you feel to your partner and figure out the first step you can make, without forgetting that sex is a powerful bonding experience and you still can’t neglect sexuality with your main partner, unless the relationship is just financial or something i guess…

  85. Cheating is never cool. I think if Guys & Gals want to have multiple partners just look online for those groups of people and have fun. I will never understand why people lie and get someone into what they think is a “closed” relationship and still keep acting single. If you are married or in a “closed” relationship and want more sex than you are getting just tell the other person and split up. Be a man or woman up front from the start.

  86. Ok, how bout this – I was very open with my with my GF about the fact that I just don’t believe long-term monogamy is doable for me. She said, “so some day you’ll sleep with another woman?” I said, “yes, and if my theory is correct, some day you’ll sleep with another man.”

    There. Nuff said. I believe in a little thing called DISCRETION. It’s part of good manners. Having painted the bigger picture, I don’t feel I need to add all the details.

    See, experience has taught me that women who say, “I tell my man everything and can’t keep secrets because I’m honest” are actually psychos who use “truth” as their strongest weapon for generating the drama they so crave. Discretion has it’s place too.

  87. Oh, and one last thing: A person can cheat even in an open relationship, because cheating is about HONESTY, or rather lack thereof, not necessarily sex.

  88. Kudos to you, Elizabeth and James.

    Sigh. I really wish some people would stay on topic. Cheating isn’t an issue of whether or not people are ‘hardwired’ for monogamy, it’s an issue of deception. If someone believes that they cannot be monogamous and doesn’t expect monogamy from their partner, then let them get married with the understanding that it’s an open relationship. Cheating is more about betraying trust than about sex. Even I, who stands firm against cheating, must admit that I have been tempted on occasion. BUT, whenever that happens I immediately tell my love, and we DISCUSS it. I, however, have never cheated on him, and it hasn’t been difficult because I do not want to become a liar and deceiver–I like having my self respect intact. I do believe that it is unreasonable to expect that one’s partner will never be attracted to nor tempted by another, but I do not, and cannot foresee being convinced, that it is unreasonable to expect one’s partner to be open and honest about it.
    If one has the strength of character to be honest and communicative, then why should they have to settle for someone who is obviously not their equal, i.e. a cheater?

  89. You know – maybe I am not wired for monogamy – but that doesn’t mean I can’t overcome the hang up. Yeah, sure, monogamy is difficult – but in my opinion it’s worth it. Human beings aren’t “wired” to learn history, to use computers, to sit in a quiet place and read a book, or to stop and marvel at the beauty of the world. Yet, I do all of those things, happily. Even if when it feels difficult to do those things, because I know in the end it is worth it, for my heart and soul.

    Oh – and if human beings are naturally incapable of monogamy, where exactly does jealousy of partners come from? Because it seems pretty natural to me as well.

  90. Somehow some people keep defending the cheating concept, the latest comment presents cheating as the only way to make marriage last. That is because cheaters claim that we ( humans ) are not hardwired for monogamy.

    We are animals, but animals with inteligence, which sets us apart from the rest of the animal kingdom, and renders childish excuses irrelavant.

    The issue is not that marriage is tedious, stale, and cheating has to happen in order to help it survive. The issue is honesty, communication, love. I understand not all humans have the capacity to manage said emotions, states , feelings, responsabilities, that is a fact. Therefore, those that think or feel they are unable or incapable of comitting to a significant other, those person must refrain from marriage.

    Inferiority expresses itself in these individuals when they chose to deceive a significant other, intro a relationship of trust, where children are involved, and then, cheat.

    If those persons that can not or are unable to commit deceive a significant other and engage in marriage, then they are inferior beings, because they can not efectively manage their lives, and they have to resort to deception in order to keep a girl ( or guy if you are female ) by their side, with full knowledge that they are incapable nor able to fulfill this promisse of monogamy.

    If a person, later on, in marriage, has problems with his/’her partner, then cheating is not the answer. You must deal with your significant other about the issue, and work it out.

    The coward finds easy exit in cheating, therefore never facing the issues, and using as excuses those issues he/she could had fixed had he/she faced that issue through communication.

    If you are married,( or in a relationship.) and you think your spouse can not fulfill your expectations, after you have tried to find a solution through communication, then, you must take the step to legaly divorse/separate, and then, instead of cheating, find another partner.

    Cheating is not the solution even for those cowards that use it as such. The solution is communication, and after asessment and problem solving, only then, reconciliatiomn or else separation divorse will allow that person to seek another partner.

    If you do not love your spouse any more, instead of cheating, and if you think monogamy is not for you, then, face the music, stand up, assume your responsabilities through a divorse, and then , instead of cheating, go find another person, w/o lying, w/o ruse, trickery and word games about humans not being wired for monogamy.

  91. I read the article (suck) from AlanK.

    I know many people who stayed married to the same person until death, or are still alive, and married a few decades. They work because there is communication, trust, love, understanding, and intimacy *Traits hard to come by with a cheater* If people are ‘hard wired’ to cheat, then how come everyone knows its bad to do it?? If cheating is so natural for humans to do, then why don’t everyone go into open relationships, since everyone would ‘understand?’

    I don’t buy it. There is two types of people here: Those who know better than to cheat on their loving partner, and actually ‘talk’ out the problems without going to extremes by lying/cheating behind ones’ back;
    and those people still living in the stone age, and think we are animals, and cheat because they read one article about ‘I need to spread my seed!!!’

    Do you really think the guy who has 9 children, with 9 different women is living happy, that he spread his seed? Damn child support must really put a dent into his paycheck. Maybe guys like this should think about getting out of the stone age.

  92. I evince a minor curiosity as to how old most of the people are who are making these replies. You see, the typical couple marries at about 30 and lives to about 85, sexually active almost all those years (thanks to improved nutrition, exercise, and the wonders of modern medicine). In a society swimming with sexuality as this one is, expecting lifelong fidelity seems unreasonable. Hell, it turns out that even swans cheat.

    This isn’t a soluble problem; we’re hardwired to want intimacy and to want novelty [sequential monogamy, anyone?]. We’re not hardwired to live 50 years with the same person. If marriage is going to survive it is going to have to change.

    BTW: here’s a brilliant essay on the topic that appeared in the gone-but-not-forgotten Web 1.0 e-zine “Suck.”
    http://www.suck.com/daily/2000/05/22/daily.html
    Can’t quite recall who wrote it, but he was a fine young man and much younger then.

  93. Oh – and also, Johnny, I did not at all assume you had cheated. I really didn’t think you were necessarily talking about cheating – just that it wouldn’t exist if we all didn’t cling to our own jealousy.

  94. Not sure if I am one of the pissier people around here, Johnny – but honestly, I didn’t really think anything of your comments other than that you must be one of those truly amazing people who don’t get jealous and can actually handle an open relationship. I wish I knew how to make myself okay with that. Honest

    And yes, I have been cheated on, and I have dealt with that in my own life… But, because I know how it feels, yeah, reading Orton’s comments upset me, because I have been the woman who’s man decided to stray and I know that it hurts. REALLY REALLY bad. *Side note: He did not cheat on me because I am “frigid”… I have a higher sex drive than most men I know, including the one that cheated.* On top of that, his comments upset me because he seems content to blame his wife while saying he won’t talk to her about it… I was blamed for the reason I was cheated on – but see, I had no idea that my guy was unhappy with anything that was going on… because he cheated, rather than talked.

    Maybe we just want Orton to talk to his wife, rather than just go out and lie to her… Maybe we get upset because we don’t want others to hurt the way we once did. That’s my take anyway.

  95. ^Sorry Johnny, but I’ve never cheated, my husband has never cheated, and the only person I known has cheated was way back in 7th grade. So, with no experience in cheating, I understand its wrong. There are people out there that do not stray, and actually have LOVE for their partner and do not cheat. So, Johnny, you’ve been cheated on then? By your girlfriend? Sorry to hear that. You must feel angry, and wonder why she did it. The biggest thing about cheating is the lying to one another. Hey, if Orton just told his wife he felt sexually neglected, maybe he would find out that his wife thought he was the one that didn’t want sex anymore. Hummmmmm………..Communication is lost in many of these cheating partners. Hey, if you want to cheat Johnny, or Orton, talk to your gf/wife about having an open relationship, so they can have someone too, some hot man on the side for their enjoyment.

  96. No, Johnny, people really can believe in finding more productive ways around relationship problems than cheating without being mad at you. Cheating is a cowards way out of actually dealing with the person you’re in a relationship, no matter if you do it or if your girlfriend does it, and no matter what does or doesn’t come of the cheating. and if you truly don’t presume long-term fedility from anyone as opposed to just not presuming it from you, why lie about it? what is the benefit of cheating over an open relationship if it’s truly expected that both parties will cheat?

  97. Everyone here’s obviously experienced infidelity – hence the spike in hostility. Difference between me and most folks is that rather than fight the tide, I’ve taken this as a sign that people are naturally inclined to stray. Men and women.

    Everyone clearly assumed I think it’s ok for me to cheat on my GF. What if I’m talking about her cheating on me? I don’t presume life-long fidelity from anyone. It’s naive. Just ask the “you swore to be married for ever and ever” camp – yeah, yeah. I bet some of the pissier people in this thread have been divorced themselves. But that’s ok, right, because it’s for THEIR reasons.

    Another thing is that the female definition of infidelity is HIGHLY flexible. While most women claim that they hate cheaters, most women are perfectly comfortable with “overlapping” – as long as a new supposedly faithful relationship comes out of the trist, you’re all good. It was meant to be, the new guy is your soul mate, the old BF wasn’t being emotionally nurturing anymore anyway, blah blah blah.

    The name-calling – you’re not pissed at me, or at Orton. You’re pissed at your daddy who cheated on your mom, or your husband who took a lover because you went frigid (as per Orton’s dilemma) or at the GF who bwoke your wittle heart by fucking the biggest douchebag in school after she swore she’d love you forever, or at the BF who cheated when you gained 30 lbs… so, sticks and stones, y’all. Take it up with whoever you’re really pissed at.

  98. I concur with Black Iris.

    I truly do not understand why the women are always blamed for a ‘sexless’ marriage. I don’t believe that there is some fundamental, hereditary sexual dysfunction built into women, that after so many years of marriage turns them into cold fish. It seems like a cheap excuse of lazy men who don’t want to take an objective look at themselves and ask, ‘What I’m not providing my wife that may cause her to have such a lack of interest in me?’

    Cheating really is the cowardly way out. Therapy and communication may take time, but in a marriage you’re supposed to have your whole lives to make it work so what’s a few months or even a year of putting in some extra effort and getting help.

    Furthermore, these men and women who defend men for cheating are not only harming the women (and men) that are being betrayed, but are also helping to cement the negative stereotype that men cannot be as open and honest as women.

    This is also a HEALTH ISSUE. Every person has the right to know if their partner is sleeping around. Cheating strips a person of their rights to decide how much of a sexual health risk they are willing accept, by the withholding of vital information. Cheating is a violation of a pact between any two lovers–married or no.

  99. I just wanted to add for the husbands who say they cheat because they aren’t getting sex at home – it is very unlikely that your wife is happy in a sexless marriage. At some time she may be tempted to stray. She might also wait until she feels she can divorce you. You need to solve the problem together, not avoid it.

  100. @figleaf

    From what I’ve read, 90% of the people signed up for Ashley Madison are men. I sometimes wonder how they actually manage to cheat.

  101. Orton, you didn’t sign up for a sexless marriage. You signed up to love your wife in good time and in bad and to stick to her. You signed up to be faithful. You signed up to fight for your marriage when things go wrong.

    Right now, there is something missing in your marriage. You have to take the lead and confront it with your wife. Let her know that it’s not okay, you love her, you want to stay together, and the two of you have to make a change. Find out her point of view of the problem and why she isn’t interested in sex. Then work on it together until you are both happy.

    You have abandoned the role of a good husband and if your wife finds out, you could end up with the divorce you don’t want.

  102. I have been reading the thread, and I can see that some guys keep making childish excuses, the newest one, that a wife, the house and the kids are responsabilities that he , the responsable ( but cheater guy ) takes care of dilligently.

    Now, the part that seems out of control, out from the control of this “responsable” guy, is his wife, woman who :

    [quote] “””just not interested in the sensuality that you crave what is wrong with finding some one who rings the bell who makes you feel alive im not talking about a one nighter with no passion.””” [/quote] ( by Orton)

    So, instead of talking to your wife, helping her with the chores , making more time available for her to exercise, for her to take care of herself, instead of finding out how can you help her regain her former stamina, intead, you go out and find someone that “rings the bell” .

    Have you looked at yourself in the mirror? I bet you are a slob, a beer belly couch potato. I wonder why your wife feels like sex with you is like jumping into a pool filled with vomit.

    For sure, your brain is full of it.

    Orton adds:
    “”I have not abandoned the role of father or provider or nuturing husband. I choose to fill my needs selfish sure but so is the cold shoulder.””

    I would rather be alone, fend for my kids, and get the child support dully needed from my spouse to help in taking care of my children, than having a whore of a wife.

    What you call “responsable parenthood, a father that takes care of his role of father, provider” is a bunch of bunk. What you are is a coward that cares less about hias children and wife, a coward that hurts his wife and kids everytime he cheats, a coward that that finds it easier to cheat and hide like a chicken, rather than divorsing and paying due child support after due property settlement agreement.

    Call it what it is, the life of a coward that rather than facing the consecuences of his actions, cheats his wife of a husband, his kids of a father, and fears the day his wife would leave him.

  103. Orton – You say your wife is a great friend, and you generally seem to care for her greatly… But see, the thing is, you are lying to her. Can you imagine how hurt she would be if and WHEN she finds out? (Because, buddy, they always find out). Plus – isn’t it a bit more likely that the divorce is going to come from you making the choice to cheat, rather than frankly discussing with your wife what you want and need?

    And btw – you are not truly being a nurturing husband if you’re flat out lying to your wife. Sorry… but one cannot both be nurturing and betraying at the same time.

  104. So Your married lifge means you live a dull sexless existance even though you hire a nanny wine and dine your gal provide a nice house a car nights on the town and she has lost intrest in sex.

    Im not saying that it is perfect but you dont want to leave your responsibilities. Your children the house your wife who happens to be a terrific friend just not interested in the sensuality that you crave what is wrong with finding some one who rings the bell who makes you feel alive im not talking about a one nighter with no passion.

    Life is not as black and white as you nmake it out to be. If one partner wants to give up sex I am not about to beg and plead. i will woo and cajole but after a while who needs the frustration no means no.
    If I am sated and feel like I have been in a sensual sexual physical place it leaves me more emotionally available to my wife.
    I bring flowers do the dishes vacuum the house take the kids to the park all that stuff. I didn’t sign up for a sexless marriage but hey..I am not about to see my kids on the weekend and have them bed hop so I can be sexual and get that nurturing helaing viibration of life.
    all of the crap you are heaping on me is nothing but self loathing.
    I have not abandoned the role of father or provider or nuturing husband. I choose to fill my needs selfish sure but so is the cold shoulder.

  105. Quote from Orton: “You get married have children your wife becomes frigid and just into the kids hey dont look at the tits they are milk for the kids they own the milk factory you gett eh couch…so what is so wrong with a hook up.. now you have two women who are pissed off at you. But at least one is giving you the happy in your giggle spot”

    So, Orton, you are saying that once you get married to a great girl, and get her pregnant, come to find out she likes taking care of your kids, and is tired to have daily sex with you, you are allowed to cheat. Hummmm……You are really an idiot.

    Why is it the woman’s fault? Why do you have to go to some whore to get sex? You chose a married life, to have kids, and you disrespect your wife and kids by getting some cheap sex on the side. Such a weak little man, no little boy.

    And for open relationships, if both parties are ok with sleeping with other people, how far can this go without someone wanting to only be committed with ONE person? I think people settle with someone they are not really interested in, and cheat on them with someone they really want, and is too much of a wuss to end the previous relationship. Why cannot people be civil adults about this?
    People who cheat are inferior people and need to live in caves.

  106. Kb – I totally agree… That’s my point with most “cheaters”. Most of the men and women I know who have cheated on monogamous partners (The ones who are not doing it as a cowardly way to get out of the relationship anyway) do so because THEY don’t want to be monogamous. They don’t want their partner to have other uh… partners, but they want to be allowed that for themselves.

  107. So breaking promises and lying are the right path for some people?

    Contrary to sensationalist media, most married people manage to not have sex outside their marriage.
    http://www.oprah.com/article/relationships/couples/relationships_cheat_b1/3

    Berliot needs to open her mind and talk to the women who get cheated on, starting with the one she hurt. Getting the story from guys who want to get in your pants isn’t exactly narrow-minded, but it is naive and one-sided.

  108. YES, Dannie and kb. For me, too, the real crux of the matter is the lying, and the fact that when in a commited relationship, one should be able to talk honestly to each other about feelings, wants and needs.

  109. thank you figleaf-I do agree. also, Johnny, way to pretend open relationships don’t exist. They do, and some people(not everyone, Elizabeth is totally entitled not to want that) are very happy in them. you can be committed without monogamy. I’m not really sure how you can be committed without truth. or equality. Which is what really gets me on the whole “more than one person is more natural” thing-if that’s true, why aren’t you telling your partner and giving them that opportunity? Why do you want to be the only one they’re with, but not the other way around? which is the bullsh** part.

  110. And as long as I’m objecting to useless stereotypes, the guys here painting the idea that it’s a) “normal” for sex to peter out over the course of a relationship and that b) it’s always women who lose interest are, um, really, badly, seriously, even heartbreakingly mistaken. Badly mistaken. Self-deludedly wrong.

    Which is why, incidentally, nearly as many (one quarter vs. one third) married women cheat as men.

    Just sayin’

    figleaf

  111. “Melanie Berliet … recently investigated the site to find out why men cheat…”

    Yeah right. If only Larry Craig had known about Ashley Madison I guess he might not have been arrested in that Minnesota men’s room.

    Not disputing your overall piece. Just raising a point of order about magazine editors massaging the assignment to fit the stereotypes they think their readers want reinforced. In reality I understand that women who cheat *also* use Ashley Madison to do so.

    figleaf

  112. Honestly, my issue with it is the lying. Though I would love to ramble at the blatant exposure of misogyny, stereotypes, and ignorance, my basic point is this: male or female, if whatever you’re getting out of an exclusive relationship is not enough, be honest with the individual–because you love them, and it is worth a little effort and communication to try to make things work for the both of you. Maybe that means opening the relationship to sexual affairs. Maybe that means changing the terms of your intimacy. Maybe it means ending the relationship altogether. The point is, lying is base and shows poor quality of character. It hurts people. And it ultimately hurts the relationship.

  113. While I’ve never cheated on someone I love, and would expect them to be faithful as well, I know there are some people who believe cheating is not only inevitable, but potentially healthy for relationships. When I lived in Europe, I met a lot of people who had affairs.

  114. The holier than thou group has not lived a long life is my take.
    You get married have children your wife becomes frigid and just into the kids hey dont look at the tits they are milk for the kids they own the milk factory you gett eh couch. the sex life heads south and you love the wife the kids the dog the car the house but hey you like the intimacy of sex. what do you do?
    Your once wonderful sex life with the wife is now once a month or once a fiscal quarter. the open arrangement is out taboo never to be talked about but you are once a quarter twice a year in one position no talking dead fish sex..

    so what is so wrong with a hook up.. now you have two women who are pissed off at you. But at least one is giving you the happy in your giggle spot

  115. OMG. Really, Johnny? I distinctly remember my mother telling me as a child when I would say stupid shit like ‘but every body does it’ that ‘if everyone jumped off a cliff, would you?’ She had a point. If most people have unprotected sex does that mean it must be a good idea? And speaking of which, if you want to go with the whole ‘it’s natural’ argument, well so is having unprotected sex– still doesn’t make it a good idea. If people want to sleep around, if someone doesn’t feel like they can be monogamous, that’s fine. I’m glad they know themselves so well, but don’t LIE to someone and portray your self as monogamous and marry them. All that does is rob the victim of the chance to be with somebody who isn’t a deceitful, manipulating, coward who can’t even be honest with the one person they supposedly love more than anyone else. Don’t take the vows if you can’t handle them. You and people like you need to stop shoving bullshit at us. It is insulting to our intelligence that you think for a moment that we would buy such blatant, pathetic, juvenile excuses for poor behavior. Go back to the 7th grade where someone might believe you—this website is for reasonable adults.

  116. I do not think most people cheat. That is a fallacy. It is the most vocal side that gets the attention. It happens in many issues, like abortion, in which tha mayority of the population backs the right of a woman to decide , as opposed to the small , vocal and irrational side that backs banning abortion completely.

    I heard it before, “everybody drinks and drives”, “everybody cheats in exams”, everybody everytbody!!!!!

    Cowards and low lifes think everybody else shares their way of life! That is a valid “everybody”.

  117. Adultery is cultural. Not all cultures are apposed to it. Some embrace it. American are horrified by it (usually), others not so much. If you are going to “cheat,” just make sure you make sure the other knows about it, and don’t freak out if they “cheat” too. If you can have a succesful relationship, while sleeping around, there is no harm in it. And it is of no business of mine.

  118. Johnny – I wish that we could all be the type of person who could handle an open relationship. If you have any advice as to how I can completely override my own given emotions (other than “Just do it”) , Let me know.

    I also wonder whether or not the woman who wrote this article has been on the other side of the equation – as in, has she been cheated on? Because it’s easy for someone to say “Oh, yes, I am perfectly okay with a little adultery” if they have never been the one who’s been betrayed.

  119. Oh give this a rest already. Most people cheat, or would cheat, and at the same time, most people get horribly hurt when cheated on. Even if they themselves are cheaters. It’s a big, hypocritical paradox that need not exist. Just quit attaching so much weight to who fucks who. It’s normal to sleep around.

  120. Elizabeth-

    It’s a phrase akin to “I support property rights through theft” or “I support a pro-life agenda through assassination.” In other words, it’s either a feeble attempt at a rationalization or the deranged ranting of a diseased mind. I encountered this mind-set in a bunch of former colleagues. They knew their marital infidelities were unethical (i. e. “wrong”) and rather than embrace the fact that they were lying douche-nozzles, the men in question reinforced each other’s proclivities and gave permission to continue being dirt bags. So it goes. Unfortunately, there is a sizable portion of the population that isn’t really interested in doing ‘the right thing’. They’d rather do what they want and find a way to feel OK about it.

  121. Can someone please explain exactly what “monogamy through adultery” means? Because it sounds like someone just doesn’t actually know what the definition of monogamy is to me….

    And that website makes steam come out of my ears too. It’s so freaking gross.

  122. Let me add to this post that this is not an issue of being “open minded or closed minded”. Since when being a mendacious person, lies and deception becomes being “open minded”, while, apparently, being honest, commited ( or non commital if the person feels not ready to compromise ) becomes or turns a person “closed minded” ?

    This reminds me of kids, teen agers that through peer presure commit crimes or begin using drugs. The “open minded” guys become criminals, drug junkies, just to apeace the minds of those “leaders” that in fact are inferior beings herding unsuspecting or inexperienced others to act like cattle.

    Open minded and closed minded people…..I see a wolf in sheepsclothing.

  123. Cheating and affairs are signs of plain and simple weakness and inferiority.

    It is simple, if you want to full around, have girlfriends ( or men if you are a woman ) and remain single, that is fine, do it, but be honest, be a man ( not a chicken ) or a woman ( not a snake ) and tell those you like that you want to remain friends.

    When you tell someone, a significant other, that you think that she ( or he if you are a woman ) is the person you want to consider your partner, your soulmate, your official girlfriend, your wife, then you are commiting to that person, you have pledged your word and you are asking that other person to trust you and to consider you a commiting mate.

    When you take that step, and when in return you are asking that other person to commit to you, and to consider you her exclusive partner, it is then that cheating, affairs, and the like becomes an issue of inferiority, an issue of lack of probity, an exhibition of boorishness and wanton betrayal.

    There are no excuses, no explanation that can make affairs or cheating the means to achieve “Monogamy through adultery” as the author of that groundless article states.

    The only inteligent ( or perhaps, the most inteligent, dolphins, chimps , dogs and even crows have shown inteligence to a measurable degree ) species in the planet can not explain cheating as inevitable or as a means to protect monogamy ( the biggest load of bunk I have heard in a while ! ) at all. Only inferiority, as in inferior beings, can explain those actions in those human beings that have resorted to and reverted to instinctive or compulsive actions, cheating is an expression and the exhibition of primitive ways of thinking, boorishness at its worst, instincts over mind, humans at the level of dogs and pigs.

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