Advice from three of our guy friends. This week a straight woman asks, “Why do some guys get freaked out if a woman asks them out, and act like she’s desperate? Is it because they feel like they have to say yes? Or does it actually make a woman seem less attractive to some guys, if she’s playing the opposite of hard-to-get? Do guys make assumptions about what a woman is like, based on the fact that she asks him out?“
Straight Married Guy (Ben): I would guess one of two things is happening here. Either you’re dealing with a really immature guy — a guy who doesn’t have a lot of experience with dating or who isn’t all that confident in himself — or you’re dealing with a guy who just doesn’t want to go out with you. Either way, there’s a strategy here for easily figuring out how a guy is going to react before you ask him out. It’s called “flirting.” Start slow, toss an innuendo here, a very casual touch there. If he returns the flirt then start ramping it up. Really, everyone – man or woman – should have a pretty clear idea what the answer is to “Will you go out with me?” before you even ask it. You’ve achieved “expert” flirting status when you can get your mark to ask you out first. Saves you money on the date while you decide whether he’s good enough for you.
Gay Commited Guy (Bradford Shellhammer): Yes, some men like women who are quiet, who play the part of the damsel in distress. They like the power struggle. For those guys I imagine it could be a turn-off. But for every one of those guys, the ones intimidated by strong and direct women, I bet there are even more who’d be welcome to women making the first move, being the pursuer. Yes, guys — hell, everyone — makes assumptions about people based on first impressions. Nothing new there. But women should be more aggressive with dating and asking guys out. I think it would, in the long run, save them a lot of headache.
Straight Single Guy (Max): I like a girl who is hard to get. Us dudes like the thrill of the hunt and the time during which we don’t know if anything is going to happen. When a girl asks me out it is (most of the time) a thrill, but quite different from working hard for a lady, and eventually getting what you want. Suddenly, you realize that you are the hunted and this can
be either amusing and awesome, or a frightening realization that your game ain’t up to snuff. Personally, I’m quite intrigued by any girl who has the guts to ask me out. A girl who knows what she wants is a good thing. For all ladies considering such moves, however, I will point to this question as a good indication for the risks involved. We CAN get freaked out and you CAN look desperate if you do this in the wrong manner. If you ask a guy out, give him options. Let him feel a bit of power by picking the location, time or whatever. Just don’t walk up to him and tell him to take you out this Saturday and that you love sushi. Even if you’re a total babe, this is a strange move and will spook most men.
Our “wise guys” are a rotating group of contributors, some of whom wish to remain anonymous and some of whom like the attention. This week’s Straight Married Guy is Ben, a writer and artist living in Los Angeles who runs AdultParlorGames.com; our Gay Guy is fellow SUN blogger Bradford Shellhammer, the creative director of fabulis and a New York Times featured decorator; and our Single Straight Guy, Max, is a recent college grad in New England. To ask the guys your own question, click here.
Hi SS, I’m curious about the book and the definition of “a little chasing.” I’d read that to mean that she and I are engaged in a flirting, like Hildy Johnson and Walter Burns or Susan Vance and David Huxley. So the chase is more shared rather than one-sided regardless of who initiated. It’s also more fun for both of you.
I’ve got this theory I call the bogus Two Rules of Desire. One is that it’s simultaneously intolerable and inconceivable for women to have genuine sexual desire, the other is that it’s simultaneously intolerable and inconceivable for men to be desirable. Sure, they’re totally bogus rules but a lot of guys (and a surprising number of women) fall for them.
The upshot is that, for a lot of guys, it’s somewhere between intolerable and inconceivable for a woman to ask them out without being either “desperate” or else having some sort of other ulterior motive.
Quick note for Max: “Thrill of the Chase” is popular but it’s only one game you can play in what turns out to be a pretty big arena. And the rules for “Chase” (women mustn’t be strong, men can’t be good looking, everybody pretends they’re above average) are awfully limiting.
figleaf
I just finished a book where men wrote in about their feelings re: sex, dating, work, women in general, and the consensus of the dating section was that men wanted to have to do a little chasing, they didn’t like the idea of women being completely available from the first contact. So, while some people have commented that this is a primitive or out-dated way of looking at things, it still may be the most common. I do think we are hard-wired with certain gender expectations/behaviours (women as nurturers, men as hunters); there has certainly been enough written about the subject over the years to justify this claim, although obviously people can choose to behave differently in their own lives. Personally (although I’ve been out of the dating pool for a very long time…), if a guy couldn’t work up the nerve to ask me out, I wouldn’t find that very appealing. If I were being friendly/flirty, and there was still no response from him I’d assume he was either not interested or too shy/scared to take a chance, neither of which bode well in the potential boyfriend department.
LOL, emandlo…I guess the photos of you two are such hotties, it threw me off. 😉
@katie & @julie, your comments make me wonder about how little has changed in (gasp!) 25 years. Where I used to work, guys would kvetch about how hard it was to ask women out and how awesome (it was the 90s) it would be if women had to ask guys out. And I would just grin to myself, remembering my experience. Yet I wonder now if men need to “man up” (“woman up”?) about being asked out…
I have to admit that i haven’t had luck with the guy I asked out, and i personally felt like that because he didn’t have to “chase” me he wasn’t as into the relationship. I think he thought i must be really into him so he didn’t have to work for it.
I’ve definitely asked guys out, but I’ll be honest…it’s never lead to anything but one date and nothing afterwards. While I like to take charge, it seems most guys still craze some control and can’t handle it when the girl is at the wheel. I also think that some men don’t quite know how they’re supposed to contact or interact with a girl after a date she prompted–now do they follow up? Do they need to play it “proper” and not push anything sexual? While females basically deal with this after every date, I’m not sure guys are used to that yet.
Thanks for the compliment BCofUIMhere, but we’re children of the 70s… stick around here long enough and you’ll soon figure that out by the amount of 80s and 90s pop culture references that litter our writing!
I had to LOL when I saw this. The last time I asked a guy out was probably before EM & LO were born (1985). I asked him out, picked him up, brought him flowers. The date was a classic dinner and a movie, I paid for both (because I asked him out). We took a walk, in the moonlight, I dropped him off, told him I had a really nice time and hoped he did too. We had a good night kiss (just a kiss, I treated him like a total gentleman) and went home. The next day, he called and screamed (!) at me that I treated him like a p***y, hung up and I never saw him again.
Thank you, PK, nick, and Dave W–I feel the same as you.
PK and I are not into Max speaking for all “us dudes.” I would suspect that some women are not into Johnny speaking for them, though I’d prefer to hear from them, themselves.
Ben’s mention of flirting could be seen another way: two people building up a rapport in a collaborative manner. When it comes to that point, like he says, it doesn’t matter who asks the other out–the attraction is already established so if the guy bails at this point he’s either a sleaze who is attached and likes to lead people on, or someone who is too mired in traditional gender roles to see what fun he’ll be missing (viz, the rapport that was already established in a collaborative manner).
The more coy a woman acts, the more quickly I walk away. One can flirt without falling back on tired constructions of hunter/hunted. In fact, I’d argue one would get to know the person better if these roles were avoided. Playfulness and creativity go a long way!
I hate to subscribe to gender-role stuff, but I do think most of my asking guys out has been in the nature of, “So, you wanna do something sometime?” That’s pretty much always gotten the party started (I am an inveterate flirt so, yeah, by the time I say that I’m pretty clear on whether they’re interested or not.) I don’t like to think that I’m being olde skool sexist by not being more direct but, who knows, maybe I am.
Does anyone who’s answered, think guys who are more on the introverted/shy side require a little more of a push say if a woman was interested in him? Which does happen such as in my case.
Question is, why won’t women ask men out?
I’ve pondered this at length, and asked many women I know, and I’ve concluded that most women just don’t want to ask men out. I hate to get all traditional-gender-roley, but most women really do prefer a take-charge kind of guy. I’ve heard even the most feminist-identified women complain about dudes who, for whatever reason, aren’t busting a move.
These are the reasons the guy isn’t busting the move himself:
1. He’s oblivious
2. He’s intimidated
3. He’s taken or otherwise unavailable
4. He’s not interested
1 and 2 turn women off – those guys rarely get asked out. 3 can go either way depending on the woman – this scenario is the likeliest to attract bold women. And 4 is something that many people (many women and the guys from scenario 2) just don’t have backbone to confront.
As for the confidence thing… the higher a woman’s confidence, generally, the more selective she is with her partners, and the more likely she is to want a dude with the confidence to boldly ask HER out.
Like Ben mentioned, flirting is the closest most women will come. Then they want the guy to grab the ball and run with it.
I don’t see any downside to a girl asking a guy out. Yeah, it shouldn’t be, “You, me, Saturday, Sushiden, be there!” Flirting? If that’s your thing, OK. I look at it as being like a filter. Chances are, if you’re comfortable asking a guy out(nervous is OK), it is reflective of other parts of your personality. If a guy is put off by it, then he probably isn’t right for you. It’s not as if you’re informing him that at some point, you expect to do him with a strap-on. It’s a simple question, and it might be less painful to be rejected up front than after a few dates.
I LOVE LOVE LOVE a girl who is willing to ask a guy out.
i have a difficult time figuring out if a girl is interested most of the time, so it’s appreciated in that respect too.
Us dudes? Uh, Dude, you don’t speak for me. I’m not intrigued by a girl who has the guts to ask me out. I’m intrigued by the woman who knows who she is and what she wants. If that includes asking me out then great. This dude thinks predation by either gender is repulsive. Confidence on the other hand, is hot.