the seahorse is the only male animal that gets knocked up
Dear Em & Lo,
The way I see it, there is simply no such concept as male reproductive rights. If your girl gets pregnant and wants to keep the baby, congratulations, you’re a dad! Pay up, sucker. If you want to keep it but she wants to abort it, tough luck — there goes your progeny. The only thing a dude can do is rubber up and screen for sexual partners with similar values.
We get it, the baby’s growing in the woman’s body, and ownership is 9/10ths of the law. But come on, now. There’s got to be some kind of reasonable compromise. I don’t have an easy answer to this, and I doubt anyone else will either. Men will continue to get a raw deal here. But could you open the topic to discussion?
— Cat Amongst the Pigeons
Consider it done! What do you think, do we need male reproductive rights? And if so, what would they be? Let the debate begin (no throwing things, please) in the comments section below.
Sure. Agree to disagree. Every one is entitled to their own thoughts on what’s right or wrong.
I suppose in the end, men and women should attempt to only engage in sex with people of like minds concerning having children (with such is stated up-front), and pray that the other doesn’t change their mind when it counts.
Hey, Spes, Truce. OK?
Hugs.
Spes also said: “Sorry folks, but IN SEX IT REALLY IS EVERY MAN/WOMAN FOR HIS/HER SELF WHEN IT COMES TO PROTECTING ONE’S SELF.” END QUOTE
It depends on your relationship. My Man is responsible for our birth control. I’m not anymore. We rarely use condoms, so we use withdrawal. (The Planned Parenthood widget actually SAID this was our preferred method.) Is it NOT “every one for him or herself.” for all people, at all times. I have TRUST in this man. (Yes some people DO.) That he will either pull out, like he says he will, or he will help me raise the child which may result if he doesn’t. Which he has.
Many relationships, or even flings rely on only one member having BC responsibility. You may have wanted to preface your announcement with “if it’s casual sex.” In a relationship, it’s usually not “everyone for himself.” And I have to disagree, not only should there be some TRUST in even casual flings, but there should be responsiblity on the part of both.
But, as men can’t get pregnant, there will always be some inequality in the decision making and how much responsibility the NON pregnant memeber of the coupling has.
We’ll have to agree to disagree. I would never screw a guy who used the term, “You’re on your own.” to me. I think many women feel the same. BUT, if a man feels this way, YES, he should come out and say it, for no other reason than the woman who was about to have sex with him can see him for the selfish immature Peter Pan that he is.
Sex is risky. For both genders. A woman can die. A man can……have to open his checkbook. AW.
Guys don’t get off just by whining, “But, I didn’t want a kid right now. I want all my pennies for mySELF.” Sorry.
Spes said: “And for all our sakes please quit with the ‘writing a check isn’t near as difficult as raising a child’ tirade.”
NO! Because THAT is the crux of the entire debate.
It’s NOT even. SO, predictably the resolution isn’t “even.”
Having an abortion is also a hell of a lot more difficult than writing a check.
Because the outcome of some sexual encounters can NEVER be “fair” (women get pregnant and men don’t) it makes it “unfair” that men sometimes have to pay for kids they didn’t want.
The child shouldn’t suffer, ONLY a woman can get pregnant and the man can’t decide the fate of the pregnancy. It may not “be fair” that a woman can make a decision to abort or not, and the man can’t. But, the man can’t EVER get pregnant. There is unfairness in this entire event.
Real Men take responsibility for their actions and accidents. If the woman wants to abort, fine. But, to say, “If you don’t, you are on your own, babe.” Jeez, guys like this actually GET laid? Who’d do him?
If I man ever told me I would have to “be on your own or have an abortion if you get pregnant. I’ll pay for half of the abortion, but not a kid, {because I’m too immature to even write a check for even a small part of MY OWN child’s well being.”) he would NOT be in MY bed.
EVER.
Madamoiselle L said:…what he NEEDS to say to any hook up or girlfriend he wants to have sex with, and make sure she agrrees: “If you get pregnant, I don’t want you to have an abortion, but I don’t want to have to support the kid even a little, either.”
Again poor assumptions. It wasn’t even implied that the man would be asking the woman NOT to have an abortion.
What he should tell her from the start is: “I don’t want to be a father right now (or ever), so if you get pregnant I would like for you to have an abortion. But if you choose to keep it, please understand that I do not wish to support it nor to have anything to do with it.” (I’ve been on the receiving end of such a statement, and also on the flip side of this informing the guy before we’ve had sex that if I got pregnant I’m having an abortion and he’s paying for half of it.)
And for all our sakes please quit with the ‘writing a check isn’t near as difficult as raising a child’ tirade. No one said it was. Which just might be why the man doesn’t want to be a father–because he isn’t ready to do more than open a checkbook.(or simply doesn’t want children)
This seems to be where you’re missing the point. The woman, if she doesn’t want to be a single mother CAN choose to have an abortion. A man CANNOT choose (and should not be able to, either) to make the woman have an abortion. If the woman knowingly brings a child to term understanding that the man doesn’t want to support it or have anything to do with it, then SHE has CHOSEN to become a single mother and should not blame him for her choice. Also, I keep reading posts, some of them yours, that state that the man should make sure he always wears a condom if he doesn’t want to get a woman pregnant, which is true, BUT last I checked, a woman is just as responsible for making sure there’s a condom involved as the man. And not only that, if a woman doesn’t want to chance pregnancy then SHE should make sure that not only is a condom being used, but that SHE is also using some other form of backup birth control.
I am sick to death of reading the arrogant writings of people who insist, or at least imply, that the responsibility of protection lies only with the man. Sorry folks, but IN SEX IT REALLY IS EVERY MAN/WOMAN FOR HIS/HER SELF WHEN IT COMES TO PROTECTING ONE’S SELF.
Like I said before, men who want NO financial responsibility for a child accidentally conceived, then let THIS be what he NEEDS to say to any hook up or girlfriend he wants to have sex with, and make sure she agrrees: “If you get pregnant, I don’t want you to have an abortion, but I don’t want to have to support the kid even a little, either. So bothersome. So, you and junior are on your own. You cool with that? Good. Now, let’s get it on, baby.”
Good luck.
Spes said: “Oh dear, Madamoiselle L. You seemed to have made some very poor assumptions. Firstly, you’ve only addressed the situation as it applies to those men having been involved in a divorce” end quote
NO, I was using it as a reference. Many child support cases NOT the result of marriage never end up in court. I used THIS as a way to show that even in divorce (when the child support tends to be larger than a child born to a mother who was never married to the father) the amounts paid by the man are SMALL. (Do you HAVE kids? Do you KNOW how much work it is to gestate, lactate for, feed, clothe, shelter and nurture them? If you did, I cannot see how you can compare writing a damn check to RAISING A HUMAN BEING!)
Not to mention that PAYING MONEY simply cannot be compared to the physical, emotional and other issues involved in being the one being pregnant and taking care of a child.
How many guys can’t get dates because the have to pay child support? Few. How many women see men run like hell when they mention THEY have children? Many. This is only ONE of the obstacles single moms face. I could name about 10000 which “single dads” never face. Especially the ones whose ONLY claim on “Fatherhood” is their reluctance to open their check books.
You said: “If it’s not right to force motherhood on a woman, then it’s not right to force fatherhood on a man.” Writing a check is NOT FATHERHOOD! It’s just doing a LITTLE TINY BIT to make sure your own spawn gets to eat a little. True Fatherhood is a LOT tougher than opening one’s checkbook. Real Men make an effort and take real care of the child and be part of the child’s life, small men write a check, whiny babies refuse to even do that little.
I’m not an idiot, I was making a comparison and using divorce related child support as an reference.
Sorry, but I know women (and I think we all know) with kids who get NOTHING and live in poverty because the children’s father won’t pay child support, (and many of these men live quite well) but I don’t know a single solitary man who lives in poverty purely because of his child support.
When will some people stop thinking that there it is any more than a minor inconvenience, and no comparison to actually RAISING a CHILD, to simply write a check to make sure one’s OWN CHILD is properly cared for?
I’m flabbergasted so many people (and even a woman) would think putting out a little money is comparable to gestating and taking care of a child. It’s the least a man can do. The VERY least. And no responsible man should complain about having to do so.
Oh dear, Madamoiselle L. You seemed to have made some very poor assumptions. Firstly, you’ve only addressed the situation as it applies to those men having been involved in a divorce. NOT all children are conceived during wedlock. Also, contrary to your unreferenced statistics, I do know more than one man who cannot afford to pay their child support. Don’t misunderstand, I don’t condone dead-beat dads, especially having had one myself. However, this discussion is NOT about paying for children already delivered. This discussion is about making choices and having rights after the child is conceived but before it is delivered. Stating that if a man wants to have sex and not have children he should just wear a condom is a terribly ignorant statement. I should think by your age you would be aware that condoms aren’t 100%, which is why they’re called UNPLANNED pregnancies. If just wearing a condom took care of issue every time, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
Madamoiselle L: “OK, he can HAVE sex, as long as he takes responsibility for his actions. Taking out one’s check book is the LEAST DIFFICULT part of having children.” Yes, you are correct, which is maybe why he doesn’t want to have a child in the first place.
If a woman gets pregnant and wants to keep the child despite the fact that the man doesn’t, then she should expect to raise it on her own. If it’s not right to force motherhood on a woman, then it’s not right to force fatherhood on a man. If she doesn’t want to raise a child on her own, then she should have an abortion (which I believe the man should pay at least half of, if he wants the abortion, too). This is because she should have to take responsibility for HER own actions, as well. If a woman doesn’t like the risk of pregnancy and/or abortion, then SHE can give up sex.
There are ALWAYS risks involved in having sex (yes, even when one is married). We must all take PERSONAL responsibility for our own choices and accept the risks involved. But at no point do we have the right to force our decisions on others anymore than they have the right to force their’s on us.
Johnny said: “I’d say that paying thousands and thousands over the course of 18 years for reasons you opposed from the start is as traumatic as any abortion.” I highly doubt that. And I don’t KNOW any men who “go broke” from the little they are asked from the court to pay for child support. It is usually based on the man’s income, (a certain percentage, usually VERY small) and no judge is going to leave the father “broke.”
In fact in most divorces, with children and child support, the MEN’S financial worth rises by at least 30% to 40% or more and the woman’s financial status usually DROPS by up to 80%.
Ain’t no men going “broke” by simply paying to do a little to help the child THEY helped create.
And NO amount of money can be compared to either the physical and emotional trauma of pregnancy and childbirth and raising a child OR an abortion. It’s just not even close to the same. It’s just freakin’ money. You’d think men who complain about these things would realize THEIR CHILD’S standard of living depends on this little inconvenience of them having to open their damn check books.
A lot of good men DO realize this, and help support their children with NO complaints.
If it’s that bad wear a condom, get a vas or only date women who wouldn’t mind raising YOUR child on their own, but don’t expect to have any say in what that child does, or how he is raised if one can’t even help PAY for his upbringing.
Don’t underestimate the emotional trauma of living broke because of an unwanted financial burden. I’d say that paying thousands and thousands over the course of 18 years for reasons you opposed from the start is as traumatic as any abortion. Joe Stack?
OK, he can HAVE sex, as long as he takes responsibility for his actions. Taking out one’s check book is the LEAST DIFFICULT part of having children.
OR, make sure the woman you’re having sex with agrees, “If you get pregnant, I don’t want you to have an abortion, but I don’t want to have to support the kid even a little, either. So, you and junior are on your own. Now, let’s get it on, baby.” That will go over well!
As for a “second rent” payment, I don’t know where you get that. A few of my divorced friends get child support and are getting little more than a couple of hundred a month. (and a lot of these guys miss every other payment.) You can’t find an apartment for even a quarter that, here. I know no child who can actually BE supported on Child Support even half. And, we are STILL comparing MONEY to someone’s ability to be fed, clothed, comparing MONEY to carrying a child in your womb, pushing that child out, (and maybe dying in the process) or being scarred for life by a C Section or a 3rd degree vaginal tear, or worse. There is still no comparison between putting some MONEY out there and gestating and caring for a child.
I’m not saying that paying pretty much a second rent payment every month is the same as caring for a child, but it’s still a burden that the guy has no choice but to take on. And if you say, Well, HE SHOULDN’T HAVE HAD SEX please keep in mind that this is the same reasoning people had for years to keep teenage mothers from seeking abortions and keep people from purchasing condoms. We can’t punish people for somebody else’s choices. We live in a society where any mother CHOSE to have that child. No woman, as per the law of the land, HAS to have a child they do not want to have. Why shouldn’t the guy have that same option? Should one sex have more power than the other or should it be equal? I think the country spent most of the 19th and 20th centuries fighting for equal rights for everyone; why not finish the job?
Doug said: “And please keep in mind that child support is a significant amount of money coming out of his bank account, that he has no way of avoiding if she gets pregnant”
Opening a check book and writing a check is NOTHING compared to carrying a term pregnancy, going through labor and delivery, learning to take care and feed a child, make sure the child is properly raised, OR going through the trauma of abortion.
ANYBODY can write a damn check. It never can compare to gestating and caring for a child, nor aborting a pregnancy.
Allowing men to “terminate their parental rights” only hurts the child and the woman and would put even more women and children into poverty.
The RESULTS of unprotected sex are simply NOT equal for men and women. Neither are the responsibilities. Therefor, writing a check is about 1000000000 times less life altering and important to the one writing it than either terminating or gestating and caring for a child.
Some guys think their bank account is MORE important than THEIR OWN CHILD going without? Damn, yeah, these men should NOT be having sex. Sorry.
I’m sorry Christina, but saying that if a man doesn’t want a child he just shouldn’t have sex has no weight as an argument. Mainly, it’s because women have the same option; unless you think that the only sex women have is rape, in which case what the hell? Women can choose not to have sex until they’re ready for a child too. Women can also choose to use birth control and quite literally every other form of pregnancy protection available to a man. However, there is one thing that a woman can choose to do that a man cannot, and that is to terminate the pregnancy. If a man is with a woman and doesn’t want a child, and she gets pregnant and decides to keep it, he’s out of luck. If he’s with a woman and wants a child and she decides to abort it, he’s out of luck. And please keep in mind that child support is a significant amount of money coming out of his bank account, that he has no way of avoiding if she gets pregnant. Where she CAN choose to avoid the pain, cost and tribulations of a child, he has no say in the matter; and I thought we were guaranteed equal rights under the law.
Nobody in their right mind on here has suggested that a man could make a woman carry a child to term. Not only is that dangerous and an extreme investment that violates so many personal rights as to be absurd; it’s also patently horrifying to think that anyone could feel that forcing a child upon a woman is an acceptable way to go about things. Also, nobody with any sort of conscience has suggested that a man could force a woman to have an abortion for the same reasons. All that we have suggested is giving the man the same rights as a woman in regards to “terminating” the pregnancy. That is, a man should, for one, know about his child if the woman decides to keep it before she gives birth to it. And the woman and her doctor’s office should be legally required to notify him (but only if she’s keeping it, he doesn’t have to be notified if she gets an abortion). Then this man should be able to express his choice in the matter in the form of terminating his obligation to the child. He would inform the court, within a certain time period and always well before the child was born, that he will cede his rights as a parent; an act which includes a restraining order placed against him preventing him from initiating contact with the child or the mother. If the mother decides she wants him in her life she can exercise her rights to do so, but when he refuses financial obligation he has no rights as a parent.
This gives both men and women the opportunity to remove from their life the burden of raising an unplanned child; something which men currently have no right to do but women have had for decades.
The issue of abortion and everything it entails is obviously an emotional and complex one. However, there is absolutely no need for male reproductive rights. If a man doesn’t want a child, he can choose not to have sex. He can choose to wear a condom. He has choices, they just occur before the fertilization of an egg. A woman is in a completely different situation, because she’s the one who has to carry about the fetus for 9 months. She’s the one who has to go through the trauma and agonizing pain of labor and childbirth.
I have to wonder how many men are out there who have a girlfriend who aborted a fetus and would’ve wanted to raise the eventual child as a single father. I’d guess very few. The bottom line is that if you’re 100% against abortion, then don’t have sex. If you choose to have sex you have to realize that, should the woman get pregnant, you will either be a father or she will choose an abortion. You can also choose not to sleep with someone who doesn’t share your views on abortion.
So, men have plenty of choices. They just occur before the sex rather than after.