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1. Balance.

   I undertand were you come from when you talk about couples that compromise on cheating. That could be a solution that the couple could reach to avoid dissolution of marriage and the expenses and quandaries involved.

   But still that is not the way to confront a situation that demands a real and healthy solution. I say this because unless the couple has no kids, or unless it is an older couple were kids are already out to college and further ahead, securing such an arrangemwent will put the kids living at home in peril, and will subject them to psicological damage.

   I had a girlfriend back in the early 90s, in fact, my very first true love. I really loved that woman, and her father was a writ and evident adulterer. My GF resented this issue very much, and her mother was a very angry woman. Not angry at others, but she seemed to hold a lot of anger to herself, she looked very unhappy.

   I could sense all that, albeit I was not part of the family. My GF’s sister, a younger girl, was an outright boy chaser, getting involved with the wrong kind of guys all the time. Self esteem seemed to be the common denominator in that house, except for the father, who was a blatant pig, boasting to me about his adventures.

   My GF told me her parents were together just to keep the house in order and to preclude separation of assets. They were very unhappy, and it seems it was a selfish decision the adult couple took upon, and the daughters paid dearly.

   My then GF had a nervous brakedown after years of taking Prozac and other stuff for depression. The younger sister went into drug use and ended up marrying some idiot looser that apparently all he does is play video games.

   The father was an incurable dog that sacrificed his whole family for his “right” not to separate assets, for his “right” to enjoy his possesions, for his “right” to have sex w/o communicating with his wife, making it easier to cheat, and making it easier to submit his wife to humilliation, instead of acting like a man.

   There are only 2 ways to deal with this effectively, either talk it over and make it work out, or else, for the sake of your kids, separate, divorse, and be friends to your ex, and raise happy well adjusted kids into adulthood

2. Yes, Lady Tarrant, it is another point you make.

   Maybe our society has accustomed us too to change, snap to other things and zap to new channels to stay content. We are a society that doesn’t know anymore what real discomfort means. Maybe with wealth we become weak? And with more choices we become spoiled? And, especially in big cities, there is always the chance that you can get an even better deal, and that goes in the world of dating too.
   We have become consumers, and I keep wondering if the amount of divorces and cheating that seems to become overwhelming over the years is not also a sign that consumerism has reached our way of living.
   We do not make an effort anymore with what we have. We become self-centered and think hapiness is fullness.
   Also, with this society we live in, TV and Ipods and video games make us live like blind, dumb and deaf people. No more communication. Even in bars nowadays, the music is so loud you can hardly hear your neighbor.

   Then, as it is said above, there is also the matter of health.

   In fact, cheating or not cheating is a very vast debate. We have to face many facets of ourselves and our society, psychological triggers and health, moral and respect issues, ways of living, and education.

   This is why I think that we cannot judge the people in this discussion, as we know only part of their story, part of their character, and part of their background. And we sometimes have only one side of the story.

3. By no means am I trying to imply that there are no exceptional cases. I realize that there are always exceptions to the rule. However, our society has become centered around telling ourselves that we are special and different. And we are, but that has led us down a treacherous path. Because see ourselves as special and unique we assume that all of our situations are special and unique, too. Following that line of thinking, we see ourselves and our situations constantly as the exception. We consistently justify our actions and feelings based on being the exception. And of course this is natural for us; we give in to this thinking because it feels a whole lot better than just admitting we screwed up. This leads people into making excuse after excuse and finding justification wherever is convenient, in order to escape facing their faults and weaknesses. When we allow ourselves to continuously make excuses for our shameful behavior we open ourselves to a very dangerous path of self deceit. Mayhap many who cheat feel justified because their situation is exceptional, but where else in their lives will they begin deluding themselves to keep the justification intact, and where have they already? It is a dangerous road one travels when one uses lies and deceit. The high road was never promised to be pleasant or easy, but what’s right is right regardless. Exceptions are few, excuses are plentiful when it comes to living a lie.
   For those FEW who may be trapped in an exceptional situation, I give my sympathy. But most just trample on these few’s ordeals and use them as an example to justify their own unjustifiable transgressions.

4. James,

   I agree with you, my blood boils too at such a thought. Cheating is not for me. I have a certain sense of loyalty and so do you and some others on this site, which is great to hear.
   I am just pointing at the fact that sometimes, some women do not want to hear anything that will break their comfort. And sometimes, men do the same. That gives only once choice to the man or woman who wants to talk without partner: divorce. And I understand that divorce means too much for some when children are involved. Courage is different for each of us.
   True, as you point out, children know, they feel something is wrong. I would advise Orton to divorce, but keep friendly with his wife. A divorce doesn’t need to be something violent. A lot of diplomaty would be needed. But this way, his wife would keep Orton as her best friend, she wouldn’t get the risk of being hurt by discovering he cheats, and a friendly time-table could be drawn for the custody of the children.
   Of course, this is wishful thinking, and Orton probably knows best what needs to be done. We are after all judging his situation without having all the infos in hand.

5. I just want to add, had I ever learnt that my dad cheated on my mother, had I learnt about this later in life, I would personaly send my father to a dentist.

   A father that could had disrespected my mother like that, and my sisters, would be a piece of trash that deserved no mercy.

   I can feel my blood boiling at such supposition.

6. Balance.

   I hear you about the part that relates to custody and the fear a parent could have about losing custody of a child.
   That is a valid point. The issue here is to solve an untenable situation.
   Cheating in order to preclude loss of custody or family unity……. ( if you could call that unity, a cheating spouse, a cheated spouse, and children that know what is going on, because kids live in that house and kids know their parents better than their grandparents know their own children. Grandparents know the children they had when those were children, kids now those same persons, now their own parents, as they are and act in this present time, not what these parents to this kids were back in time, as children to those grandparents, eons, years ago.)…. is not valid nor healthy.

   You are prescribing liquor to calm the patients tooth ache. Liquor will only delay treatment, and allow time for the infection to reach incurable proportions. Eventually the tooth infection will spread through the whole jaw and the problem will become life threatening.

   It is sad to see a family separate and divorse, but the alternative not only affects the adult couple, but creates children that will suffer greatly.

   The daughters will learn from a mother that is the vcitim of cheating that a cheating man is something that happens, that is right, and something that men have a right to do and exert when ever they need it .

   Boys from such an enviroment will grow up to become womanizers, cheaters, men that think that a woman should conform to their own ideals. Men that albeit looking like slobs, like beer belly jugs, they demand their women to look like models.

   The reverse cases apply, a daughter to a cheater mother will become a compulsive cheater and man chaser. A son to a cheated father will become a low self esteem submisive man.

   In all of these cases, all the children learn, first and foremost, that all these sad misconceptions are inevitable. They learn that there is no point in trying to communicate and talk about differences. The lesson is, conform to that cheating spouse, or in the other case, cheat and put your spouse down, because she( he ) deserves it.

   Balance, you are telling us about your great experience with communication, and that is great, that is the way to go. It ended up in an adult and cogent reality evaluation, and you both made the necesary amendments to make sure your relationship would move along successfuly.
   I also believe men and women should be ready to confront the situation, and ready to act had the results of said communication, the results of that attempted meeting of the minds is unsuccessful.
   If there is no understanding, it is better to separate and divorse, that to apeace the fear a parent could have about custody of a child, at the expense of dishonoring, humilliating and misleading a spouse, and moreover, at the expense of the sanctity ( yes Orthon, this part of the equation I believe is untouchable )… of the children of said relationship.
   I would rather have well adjusted and happy children that go to school, and thing well of their parents, growing up healthy emotionally/psicologicaly speaking, children that will have an opportunity to grow with great self esteem, ( and the parent will always be able to see their kids, that is called visitation rights, by law , by statute ) than satisfying a selfish parent that in order to avoid his/her fear from custody issues, will, again, subject his spouse, and his kids, to humilliation and disgrace.
   Before a parent even starts to think about “his” or “her” custody fears, or the child support issues, he/she should think about the health , phisical and mental health of those kids.
   There is no in between, either you work it out with your spouse, or else take responsability for your actions.
   You want to fool around, then separate/divorse. You do not want to leave your family/house/posesions, then quit the nonsense.
   You can not have both sides of the cake. You might think you can, but your kids will prove you wrong sooner than you think.

7. Hello everyone.

   Look, my husband almost cheated on me once. I wasn’t aware of anything, just some strain, lots of bickering.
   Instead of cheating though, he had the guts to tell me what was wrong, why he almost jumped in. Instead, he talked. We communicated. I was angry at first, and hurt, but because I love him, i looked into myself too, listened to what he had to say, and saw a few things that needed mending. I also tried to learn more about how men think, and what they want. And I told my husband that he was right on certain things, and dead wrong on others, and that he too, needed to work to learn how women think, or what they want.

   So communication is essential, even though it can hurt at first. Now that I know what went wrong between us, where the problem lies, it is easier to work on it. Now, we are a happy couple respectful of each other. But everything could have gone awfully wrong, and it would have hurt deeply, if he had made the other choice.

   But in a way, I can relate to Lisa, when she says that sometimes, the fault lies with the woman. Lisa is only wrong by thinking that men shouldn’t bear their part of responsibility too and saying “poor men”. They too have shortcomings and impatience and cowardice and misunderstanding, and they too can have a belly sometimes 🙂 I repeat, communication is essential. That means, no cheating and lying, or something is destroyed.

   It is unethical, and amoral to lie to a supposedly loved one and I would have divorced, had he gone on that way. But that’s my story.

   However, I don’t want to generalize. There are some cases where denial is too strong, as Orton says.

   It ended up all well for me and my husband because we are who we are. Not everyone has the strength, or the patience, or the honesty, or the compassion, etc to talk, understand, and then work hard. Everyone has his own level of what compassion means, of how far patience can go etc. Everyone has different boundaries or levels of pride, too.

   I know a case very similar to Orton’s. The husband has done everything, talked, communicated in many ways, gone to the psy, done couple therapy, and has tried to seduce his wife again. He has yelled, cried, talked sense, tried to convince. But nothing seems to work. She is in full denial. I think the problem is, she had her kid too late in her life, and now she feels like cuddling with her, raise her, and is totally focused on her. It is even bad for the kid, who thinks now she is the center of the world, and who sleeps with her parents, in between.

   The problem with American law is that the mother almost systematically gets the custody of the child. So what is to happen to this friend of ours, who communicated to no avail?
   A man is a man, not a capon. But that man is also a father who will not get the custody of the child, most probably. So yes, that man is afraid. And it does not make him a coward. He is just afraid to see his child only on week end, and let’s face it, this is unfair. Why should he pay the moral and financial blow of the whole situation when his wife obviously makes no efforts?
   He is cheating on her.

   I can’t say he is right, but I can’t blame him either. And I will not throw the stone as to whom is the most cowardly: the one who does not want to lose the child’s custody, or the one who is in denial? Because I do not know why the wife is in denial, I won’t judge her either. It might all come from her own childhood, and I won’t go there. Lying and cheating is generally not nice, and it hurts, but we should judge on case by case, not generalization.

   As for Lisa, the same goes. She wants to have fun, well it is her life. After all, all these guys who come to her and bestow gifts on her are much more to blame than her. And when there is a demand, there is a market, too…

   Do not compare this to prostitution: there is a whole shady business there, where prostitutes are beaten, raped or drugged. This is a crime, and those who pay for that sort of service should go to jail and pay heavily, because at the beginning there is violence, and at the end, there are those who profit financially from the services of these poor girls.
   As far as I know, this is not Lisa’s case, and Orton seems to have done a lot to talk to his wife, on his side, so let’s not bash them.

   Personally, I wouldn’t accept cheating from my husband, so I am glad he chose to talk instead. But I am also a woman who can take in the truth about myself and make an effort. Not everyone is me, not everyone is my husband.

8. also-Lady Tarant. you pretty much exactly describe what happened why my boyfriends father cheated-the children have both lost respect and desire for a relationship with him. everyone still convinced that cheating will keep your children in your life?

9. and why, Orton, can’t you tell her that. I have been in your shoes-my boyfriend can’t live in the same city with me, and that doesn’t meet all my needs. You know what I did about that? Handled it like a mature adult, and told him this. You know what, I get sex and don’t have to lie about it. I’m not denying that you have needs, but I do expect you to handle it like an adult instead of a little boy sneaking around behind his parents back. And yes, for the record, she needs to examine what she wants in the marriage too. I know, it’s scary to realize that you can’t force another human to do what you want and that she deserves the option to decide to walk. but face your fear.

10. Actually You have no idea what the hell you are talking about.
    I am done trying to explain a complex situation. Why would i crush my wife completely I win i am getting what I need else where she is worthless to me. that is what all of you sanctimonious windbags think is compassionate?

    I have been through all of the machinations of therapy, talking seducing etc.. this works for us.

    My wife is in denial she has denied my needs what ever she wants is the most important and if i am selfish and crush her spirit I am a coward that to me is the cowards way out.

    Should I force her to deeply examine something she prefers not to face for the sake of honesty? To me that is more selfish than my current arrangement.
    I have admitted I have certain base human needs that are not being met in m,y relationship that does not negate all of the positives of the marital relationship.

    In a perfect world I would not be in my situation. I have found I have the ability to be poly-amorous my wife does not want to be or want to face the facts.

    I find my situation allows me to be more grounded a better partner in many ways I am cranky, depressed, and not plesant when I am denied a physical realtionship.
    But i am not just that I am not just a sexual being it is one facet of life.

    I did not consent to a life of celibacy when I got married. I didn’t get the memo that marriage meant drying up and to be sexually faithful is the most important part of life. Love, honor and cherish not dry up and die.
    So kb until you have walked a mile in my moccasins respectfullys shove it where the sun don’t shine.

11. I’ve read so much of how cheating is for the sake of the children. I’ve read how lying is acceptable because it is for the good of the children. But I am curious as to how those who defending cheating care to explain themselves to their children when their (cheating partner) transgressions come to light. Do you really believe that you can keep your children’s respect when they find out what you’ve done to their other parent? Do you really believe they will side with you when their other parent is devastated and in tears? I should think a child would prefer a parent that they can spend less time with but still respect than one that is there all the time, but cannot be admired. I simply cannot understand how sex and deceit can be more important than your child’s opinion and faith in you if you claim to be deceitful because you love them oh so much.
    In addition, what kind of example are you setting for your children? Is that really what you believe is in their best interest, to be told it’s alright to be lied to? And would you want you daughter or son to be treated as disrespectfully as you are treating your partner? Do you want them to believe that it’s acceptable for them to be treated in such a manner because it was acceptable for you to do it to your partner? Tell me not that you are such a good father/mother when you show children that they should have so little respect for others and themselves. The harm you will cause them when the truth comes out, can’t possibly out weigh the Monday through Thursday dinners bathed in lies.

12. Orton-if you weren’t a coward, and were convinced that your wife was happy, you’d tell her, she doesn’t want this, you’re going to get it elsewhere and let her know what kind of relationship you think you guys have. but you don’t. You’re lying to keep a relationship that she didn’t consent to. Seems pretty cowardly to me.

13. Frank right on.
    Life is more subtle than than cheating or having a lover as I prefer to say.

    Honestly the sanctimony and the “ooh if you dont tell every secret or every event in your life to your spouse you are a lying cheating POS is a way to a demented life IMHO.

    I value my wife’ friendship and have mourned in my own way for our lack of sexual intimacy. She seems happy with out it. Okay I cant be happy as an individual giving up that part of my humanity. I also do not want to be a weekend father, with a drive by relationship with my kids. Im not out trolling around for women every weekend. and I am am discreet.
    I have a lover it works for us we are honest about our relationship we love each other too.

    In a perfect world, i guess black and white boundaries work.

    But when some one as self righteous and declaratively pious as James shows up for dinner at my house I find it is a good practice to check the silver when they leave.

    I am by no means a coward James. I pity you for your small mindedness.

14. Yes Ryan.

    Guys that write and insult so much on screen are chickens.
    Like dogs behind a fence, bark and bark, furiously, let that dog out, and he is sheepish and shy.

    You want to tell the F word to someone, do it in person. I am not surprised, it is the cheaters, aka cowards, that resort to insults on line.

    I know your kind.

15. Who cares about insults, even though we do not know anybody here, its easy to throw insults, but its just writing, unless you are so sensitive and take it to heart. Most people hate cheaters, it has ruined their lives, their parents lives, and their children’s lives. No good comes from a cheating partner. I agree, that most people who have cheated, don’t even talk to their partner about being unhappy in their relationship. They just lie to their partner, and go out and find some cheap sex on the side. Its a lot easier to do this, than go through a divorce, a separation, or telling the truth that they cheated. How come people cannot be civil, talk to their partners about what is causing a rift in the relationship? Talking is easy. It’s those people, who are afraid, that cannot take confrontation, from their ‘loved’ ones. Just talk, just TALK to your BF/GF/Wife/Husband/Partner. You are with them for a reason, you love them; if you do not love them anymore, break up with them, I know its hard to do, but if you want to be guilt-free, and go out and date other people, and not lie to them too, just BREAK-UP!!!! Own up to your mistakes!!

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